I was having a conversation with the guy next to me at work, somehow I mentioned "maybe the world we live in is actually a perfect world" and he said to me "I don't like you thinking process because you get me thinking and I don't want to think" or something along those lines.

So what do you think? Is this a perfect world?

You see I believe that yes, it is a perfect world because we learn from it, we are constantly challenged and we don't have all the answers, we go through life attaining our goals and becoming better people for it.

Well I have a simple answer - I believe that the world is generally getting better as we go along. Therefore it can't be a perfect world as it is improving.

The same can be said if you think the world is going to the crapper - its not a perfect world as we're going downhill so it must have been more perfect before.

if it was a perfect world then what are we all striving for? Maybe humanity just doesnt allow for the perfect world, theres always another man to exploit.

Think of the Matrix [but not those fucken sequels]. The original programme had no challenges or whatever and proved to be shit. It was replaced with the world as we know it - so yeah, what is perfect? I'm not outlawing that we're in a perfect world [do not pull that 'you sadistic bastard' shit on me please].

I believe that humans will never be "flawless" or "perfect" because it is in human nature to want to do better than we have in the past and it is in human nature to want to be better than other people.

But yet we live in a perfect world, Liz? You're not making much sense. Or is that just me?

Reminds me of a card my dad gave to my mum for a birthday once...
"You may not be perfect, but you're perfect for me"

Perhaps the same can be said about the world as it is. Perfection is an unattainable goal we are always striving for... why is it unattainable? Because what is perfect for one person is not perfect for another - think of Hitler and his idea of perfection, or communism as a way of equaling things out. They didn't work becasue there is not such thing as perfect, and it is not something humans can attain because of the opinion differences and the fact that the imperfections of humanity are what make the world interesting. Lets face it. A perfect world would be boring.

but then perhaps we have differing meanings of perfection. Perhaps to Malibu/flick, I mean Liz... sorry, perfection is that the world is as it is becasue that's how it is supposed to be right now...

^Preach sister. =)

Sarey, what I am saying isn't making sense to me either.

People say the world isn't perfect but I think it is perfect because it isn't perfect. Its a weird concept to follow.

michelle, thanks for referring to me as Malibu, I've sent you a pm about malibu.

Hmmm... so liz, from what I gather are you saying that because the world is imperfect and that it can never be perfect, however we strive for indefinitely getting close to it, and that motivation, the process in itself is perfect?

Read Schopenhauer or Nietszche.

They outline the ideology of willing - the constant striving for something, whether it be from a hunger pain to unrequited love.

The wolrd isn't perfect and could never gain perfection through this philosophy because a.) we are constantly striving/willing for something we never obtain ie) unrequited love and are thus miserable, or b.) we gain something we have willed for ie) satisfying a hunger pain with food, and thus become bored and miserable as we have nothing left to will/strive for. That's the basis for Schopenhauer's philosophy.

Nietszche is more about the will to power, but I won't get into that.

But no, I don't think the world is perfect. Far from it.

In a sense we need imperfection to allow for and define perfection, much in the same way that we need perfection to experience and define impefection.

*walks around in a circle*

If so, then it seems kind of arbitrary to come to that conclusion based just on because individuals being miserable, therefore the world is imperfect... Surely a distinction can be made as to whether or not such imperfection in pursuit as purported suggests objective imperfection or just plain subjective ignorance of individual minds.


I'm really just arguing cos I'm arguing

jolly olly, that is exactly what I am saying.

Yeliah, already read both, I am a big fan of nietzsche and agree with him very much.

What do we do when we do attain our life goal though?

Die.

So much for grammar and spelling, huh Liz?

But what about those who attain it at a young age who are still alive after it?

in the case of me and the guy at work, he's got a new goal, I've got a new goal too, several actually.

I don't think you do die as soon as you attain it.

*looks around*

Please tell me no-one else took me seriously?

*pleads*

I did.

You did take me seriously?

*dies*

Is goals actualisation pursuits, or really just because people are afraid of being miserable?

If you're talking about the post where you said "die" then yes, I did take you seriously. For obvious reasons. :blink:

ah, "Strong bad" is here after all. :clap: :P

Strongbad is awesome.

End of story.

*offtopic* I wish I still had my gozilla blow-up, would have been great for sticking legs and arms to it to animate Trogdor

I think goals are set by individuals because they believe that by achieving said goals they will be rescued from misery. As jolly olly man suggested, they are afraid of misery or at the very least discontented with it. (Realise that I'm using "misery" here as an abstract term to encompass general negativity.)

People are subconsciously driven to think that by achieving goals they're going to take themselves to some kind of higher plane, where they will be more "happy" and more "content" than before. They do this with little regard for the fact that as they patch up each problem in their life that brings them discontent, other issues are going to move up to replace the solved problems.

This keeps them in a constant state of struggle and anguish to reach that higher plane. Which, I would argue, is a false idea that is probably present in all mildly intelligent creatures' minds, to get us to work, work, and of course work, and be productive and stuff like that -- Forget discovering your spirituality or your true self because it's not going to happen. Just focus on solving your problems... Unfortunately, despite what your brain's telling that's never going to happen either.

Thus, I personally believe life's imperfect because it's all about striving for a fictional state of content, happiness and self-knowledge that you're not going to reach. The human animal is programmed at the core to delude his or herself into believing that "there's got to be something at the end of this trail" (as one of my friends so confidently put it) so that individuals will actually try.

oh god. liz has produced the philosophy thread. someone please stab me....

^LMAO!

*stabs you*


I would suggest that if you achieve your life goal early. FIND A NEW GOAL.

Aim higher for fucks sake. It's not like you are limited to one specific purpose and once you achieve that you are useless.

This discussion is not even remotely philosophical. I move that this thread is locked and that Liz sticks her head in a bucket of water until further notice.

I second that motion.

*dead*

*prepares bucket of water* *sprinkles in some cyanide*

Dustless, I disagree that you suffer through working for a goal. the enjoyment comes from the trying, the working.

An example of this right, is tht at work we have targets, I set my targets higher than the official target, and I always exceed them, it is satisfying working towards a goal. You do get a thrill by working hard.


hell even war can be a good thing, not the death but the learning, you learn to get along with other people who don't share your values, you learn about yourself and your values.

This is a perfect world because we learn in it.

I do not deny that a degree of satisfaction is gained from striving towards a goal and from achieving said goal. But even as you are experiencing these feelings of satisfaction there will be something else in the back of your mind that is irking you.

New goals are constantly being produced in your mind, sometimes faster than you can achieve the goals that you are currently focussing on achieving -- but almost always at such a rate that you will never really be able to just put your feet up and savour the achievements that you have made.

My reading of this is that an individual is unable to be content and that they will never have solved all of their problems. Yes, you learn things as you live your life, and you have an awareness that you've taken it all in. But you're virtually never able to just stop and piece everything you've learned together and discover who you have become as a result of the learning. That's how I feel anyway.

I would agree with never being able to stop because you are constantly striving for new goals.

You say it like thats a bad thing though, am I wrong? Do you think of this as a good thing that you never get to savour the goals you do attain?

Personally I find time to savour them, mainly because I have like 10 goals at a time, so each time one is attained I get satisfaction. Even if you only savour the goal for a day, that is still savouring it.

just to throw something into the mix, I get more pleasure in striving for a goal than I do in getting the goal.

im sorry. one time i asked if you were 5 years old. clearly a 5 year old has a higher level of understanding that this crap.

how in allahs name could you possibly understand what its like to be in war? watching pearl harbour does not count. this isnt philosophy, its garbage. where do you get off lecturing people about what its like to be at war?

war is wrong. war is always wrong, and there is nothing good to come from it. i can tell you with family and friends heavily involved in military services, not one of them has ever said 'oh boy, i really think war is sometimes a good thing.'

im past being offended by your ridiculous ideas. but i do wish you'd shut the fuck up.

"Anyone who clings to the historically untrue - and thoroughly immoral - doctrine 'that violence never settles anything' I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and of the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedom." - Robert A. Heinlein

You can't say that nothing good comes from war, because the evidence is to the contrary. You can however say that the bad outweighs the good.

Here's an example of 'something':

I'll pick the easy one here and go with technology. We always make great technological leaps during wartime. For a single example just look at the state of aircraft before and after WW2. It gave us the rocket, the jet engine etc.
Not to mention great leaps forward in production techniques, medical treatment, computing, and science in general.

conceded, so many issues have been resolved through war. i stand corrected that nothing good comes from war.

but i would also questin mr heinlein as to his points about the purpose and, as i interpret it, necessity of violence, what he thinks of ghandi, king and mandela. king paid for it with his life. mandela with his freedom, but the solutions were uncovered without war.

i cant understand war, i think even people who have been to war find it impossible to interpret. it destroys people, and it seems often the benefits are reeped by... i think brecht considers it best

'The war which is coming is not the first war
there were others before it
when the last one came, there were conquerers and conquered
among the conquered, the common people starved
among the conquerers, the common people starved too.
It is night
the young married couples lie in their beds
the young woman will bear orphans
Those at the top say
'peace and war are of different substance
but their peace, and their war
are like wind and storm'


im not so naive as to think war doesnt solve anything, or have a purpose. that doesnt make it right. and nobody here said it did. but dr steve put the words right. the bad outweighs the good.

whatever, fuck you toby.

:hilarious:

i like your style.