I'd say it's a bit of both, a way to annex land and a way to keep their people safe, however they're only justifying it with the latter reason (obviously). The 'mile per bombing' idea I mentioned would be a clever way for them to add justification to it, by making additions to the wall a direct consequence of terrorist action.

That's the problem with Israelis. They think "hey, let's keep our people safe whilst annexing land by further state terrorism to oppress Palestinians until they just stop resisting". When in fact, what we're witnessing is a decolonisation process that is only going to get worse. Oppressed people don't give up. They get even one way or another. So hence the cycle of violence that we're witnessing.

One more thing. I'm just glad Israelis now have to deal with an organisation they despise. Just like Palestinians had to deal with the rejectionist Likud governmentof Ariel fuckin' Sharon.

Gotta love it.

They don't need to completely stop the bombers though, just reduce them to an insignificant amount, then they can give Palestine the finger.

The problem with democracy

And now, horror of horrors, the Palestinians have elected the wrong party to power

By Robert Fisk

01/28/06 "The Independent" -- -- Oh no, not more democracy again! Didn't we award this to those Algerians in 1990? And didn't they reward us with that nice gift of an Islamist government - and then they so benevolently cancelled the second round of elections? Thank goodness for that!

True, the Afghans elected a round of representatives, albeit that they included some warlords and murderers. But then the Iraqis last year elected the Dawa party to power in Baghdad, which was responsible - let us not speak this in Washington - for most of the kidnappings of Westerners in Beirut in the 1980s, the car bombing of the (late) Emir and the US and French embassies in Kuwait.

And now, horror of horrors, the Palestinians have elected the wrong party to power. They were supposed to have given their support to the friendly, pro-Western, corrupt, absolutely pro-American Fatah, which had promised to "control" them, rather than to Hamas, which said they would represent them. And, bingo, they have chosen the wrong party again.

Result: 76 out of 132 seats. That just about does it. God damn that democracy. What are we to do with people who don't vote the way they should?


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11694.htm

Dude, cut the shit against Fatah. Even if the Fatah old guard has slipped into corruption (probably bullshit), at least they aren't a bunch of religious fanatics like Hamas. Fatah did more than Hamas are ever going to do for the Palestinian people, and I hope that these recent actions result in a change at the top for Fatah to make it more rejuvenated so they don't need to get beaten by fundamentalists.

The PLO sold out by trying to help the Palestinian people by negotiating with Israel? Would you regard the peace process with Israel as a sell-out? I think the PLO realised, after that years of way harder core struggle than the Quran-bashers in Hamas, it was actually better to try and work out problems with you enemies in a conference hall than actually continue to flee from country to country provoking the authorities in each one and being forced to live in perpetual exile.

You sound like Bush. Fatah's old guards DID slip into corruption. Who you trying kid? Arafat led them all into taking bribes, stealing money that was meant to go to the people, engaging in covert negotiations to maintain their power own powerful positions and influence, but in fact exacerbated problems for the Palestinians (last time i checked, dealings should occur in full knowledge of those who will be effected)- srengthenning the role of Fatah by international aid which they happily took for themselves. This is standard knowledge. Fatah led by Arafat did some amazing things in the first two decades of their emergence, however, greed and power infiltrated their ranks and it's finally caught up with them. I never said their negotiations with israel made them sell out. Don't put words in my mouth, but they certainly sold out when they squandered most of the aid that was meant to go to general populace. Fatah lost the respect of its people, and there inability to control the growing violence in the occupied territories is indicative of this.

There's a reason why Hamas came into power, after all. As for Hamas being fundamentalists, sure, they have extreme ideas like the PLO did. Like the latter, they'll tone it down for their own survival. However, Hamas isn't all about suicide bombings, it's a very well organised social and economic organisation whose reforms in Gaza in particular have earned them this mass support. Good thing is, they're most likely to unite a lot of the other groups.

The Palestinians have spoken.

Man, and I thought the United States needed a third party. Palestine REALLY needs a third party, if people have to vote for Hamas in order to get rid of Fatah.

I call Reductio ad Hitlerum/Bushum on that comment! Yet more proof that Godwin's Law exists.

You're seriously talking shit about the Fatah. They survived for decades as a guerilla/exile-political force, though I think their 'failures' at internal governance were totally inevitable due to the territorial/legal situation of the more or less Israeli-controlled Palestinian territories.

The PLO were never Islamic fundamentalists, and what the PLO did was entirely different to what Hamas did. For one, the PLO didn't do suicide bombing in the same insane religious way as the Hamas did. The PLO's ideas were logical, and to be honest I wouldn't even call them extreme in general (With the exceptions of the groups like Georgie's/the PFLP-M etc).

But even then, these guys were not on the same level as Hamas. I really don't think that the Hamas' social networks indicate that they're nice guys underneath their fanatical skin, and to be honest, I don't see how they're going to be able to unite anyone.

Also, Anti-FLag, take a look at the close election results, and take a straight look in my face and tell me that Hamas won a huge victory.

PLO weren't Islamic fundamentalists, but they certainly were secular fundamentalists. But i'm sure that's ok by you- especially their intiital declaration of destroying the state of israel right? as long as it wasn't in a religious guise right?you're being a tad selective in your criticism. Just like the PLO, Hamas also has extremist elements in them. It's not solely a "let's blow up ourselves and every israeli civilian in the process" type of group, you're trying to demonise them by simplifying their role. PLO campaigns against israel emulate those of Hamas, with the exception of suicide bombings. But both led aggressive campaigns. Fatah in fact supported suicide bombing campaigns of the Islamic militant groups believe it or not. The Al Aqsa martyr brigades of Fatah carried out attacks with Hamas. What's most likely to happen, Hamas will most probably tone down the aggressice campaigns like PLO did, but indirectly and covertly support them. PLO got the chance to politicise themselves and thus become far more moderate which Hamas has yet been given the opportunity to do. The PLO did for the Palestinians what no other group has done, and that's given them a political identity via Arafat's leadership. It's commendable. But we're talking about their last 10 year period in politics, which is inane to deny their recent corruption.

I personally think Hamas should stick to what they're doing in their social networks but their victory is a reminder to Fatah to sort their shit out or other groups will succeed them if they continue to go on the way they have. But the economic and social ills of the Palestinians have driven them to support Hamas, they want a change. Let's hope they get a change for the better. I do think Hamas is influential enough considering it's history with Fatah to unite many of the groups. The other groups won't have a choice. The authoritarian nature of the PA showed itself by its reaction to the election results. The election result was a protest vote really, whether it was in the mass majority or not.

But Fatah aren't actually that corrupt, and I find it really strange that you're criticising Fatah so heavily on these really vague charges of corruption that to be honest I think were manufactured, or at least have been blown extremely far out of proportion. Especially the bullshit that was being spread about Yasser Arafat embezzling funds.

I'm a Labor/Mapai/'Kibbutznik'-Zionist, and naturally in that I believe a Jewish state should exist. Nevertheless, their initial declaration of destroying Israel, nor Hamas' declaration of destroying Israel for that matter, doesn't particularly disturb me: Israeli parties do just the same sort of thing, just in a quieter manner.

I am being selective in my criticism, of course. The fact that Hamas is fanatically religious puts me off them entirely, whereas the PLO always had a stronger nationalist and social democratic component (something that appeals to me a hell of a lot more than the Islamic/George Bush Republican model of religious charities)

I think the extremist elements of Hamas are a little more extreme than the extremes of the PLO. I think it is a pretty simple dichotomy here: the PLO are moderates and Hamas are on the extreme right (yes, the extreme political right). Supporting Hamas is no different to supporting the extreme religious right in Israel, or the Destiny Party in New Zealand for that matter.

Their social networks are nothing more than pathetic propaganda designed to undermine PA authority. At least Hugo Chavez has an honourable agenda in Venezuela, whereas Hamas are using non-state social services to just boost their profile under some fucked up image they're trying to forge of themselves of these Islamic Holy Knights who are up for slaughtering Israeli civilians (violating the Holy Qu'ran while at it, too) while simultaneously helping their brothers out to learn to read.

It is a good thing that Hamas will make Fatah more efficient, but I am afraid now that Hamas is going to ruin all the hard work that Fatah and the rest of the PLO have done to get the Palestinian cause from nowhere 20 years ago to actually controlling limited amounts of land today (and nearly all of Gaza!).

To put it simply, Fatah fucked up. The occupation tightened its grip on the Palestinians under the guise of the "peace process" and did nothing for the Palestinians. Homes continued to be demolished, illegal settlements in fact dramatically increased, land confiscation increased, civilians continued to be harassed and killed by "IDF", humiliating checkpoints continued to grow, the aparthied wall continued to cut into Palestine without much resistance from Fatah. In fact, after speaking to Palestinians who've lived in the occupied territories, many believed Fatah were too busy trying to appease the international community and neglected their own people. Meanwhile poverty reached the highest records to date.

Whether you like Hamas or not, or whether one thinks of them as religious fanatics. The fact remains, they were the alternative and Palestinians saw their way out of the hell the PA had helped create.

Umm, could you make references to what Fatah succeded in doing in the past 10 years? and i'd happily point out their failings. I did give you some already. Like i said, the occupation since 1967 has in fact become more consolidated, more restrictive, more oppressive, and more economically devastating. The pseudo withdrawal from Gaza was merely a facade to consolidate occupation of the West Bank. In fact, the only thing israel did was remove 8000 settlers, and controlled movement, access into and out of Gaza- thus, controlling borders and airspace. It in fact made it easier for israel to subjugate the Palestinians in Gaza which became an open air prison. So umm, is that your idea of a withdrawal? PA must be so proud. I wrote more on this in a craccum issue last year if you need a better insight into this bullshit effort by israel to make concessions.

It amazes me how the Quartet has demanded Hamas to recognise israel and stop its aggressive campaigns against Israelis. But not israel's ILLEGAL occupation, and its blatant violations of over 65 UN resolutions. Nor has it demanded the international community to adhere to the role that is expected of them in regards to protecting occupied peoples. It's also amazing how a democratic election- a rarity in the region has been undermined because the result is not what everyone wanted, and how there's threats of aid being cut. Gotta love democracy.