"Mr Ryall said his party worked on the principle that medicine should be proven and that policies should be colour-blind. He said next the Government would be funding colour therapy.
"

From the National Press Release that has since served as MrT and Oob's chief supporting document. Colour therapy? Does this mean that the National Government would sponsor skin colour changes?

And the fact that you can conveniently dismiss these treatments as quackery without even knowing what they are makes yours a lot easier.

I wouldn't give a shit as long as the MOH funded trips overseas to warm beaches, which is part of the Pakeha culture, and you know, actually helps people feel better. But apparently it doesn't qualify. *sniff*

Im with Ahmed + El Comandante.

If you want to scrap the spending on this you need to get rid of all the "p.c" benefits, such as "stress leave". Hell who needs ACC these days anyway? We are all white and middle class those horrible little brown people dont need medicine anyway, as for their "magic" well ho ho ho, they are silly arnt they?

I'm black on the inside. Especially my black heart.

There are a million zillion 'natural' remedies out there. I don't have time to research them all, so I dismiss them as quackery until they're proven otherwise in a scientific test. In this as in many cases, I 'outsource' my decision to the scientific community, because they have a lot of credibility, even though they do get it wrong now and then.

Damn if they did then sign me up! I'd be the king of my domain! Instant Maori-dom. Sign me up to the Maori only grants and scholarships fellas!!! I'll be smiling all the way down to the waka in my recently (re)acquired lake.

OH I HATE MAORIS SO MUCH, WHY CAN'T THEY JUST BE WHITE LIKE I AM.

I go to forum gatherings and I only see anglos, and perhaps a token asian. Come to my LANs and you see Iraqis, Iranians, Armenians, Asians, every fucking colour of the rainbow. So your accusations of racism make me laugh.

I'm multi-cultural bitches.

So although scientists were among the committee to reccommend that these treatments were government funded, and that no tests have actually been done to verify their effectiveness, you are happy to label them as quackery and wallow in ignorance?

Arguing with someone who happily admits complete lack of knowledge is a little pointless.

But I thought the ACT party didn't allow Maoris in the party, MrT, since they kicked out old feminist-nationalist-marxist-liberatarian Mrs Huata?

Which would you choose: ACT or Maoridom?

By the way, there's a really funny story of a white south african getting an 'african american' prize in the United States, much to the chagrin of the people running the competition. I'll see if I can find it...

She was also a criminal who stole from children...

Is this part of your Armenian (and Iran I suppose) side that instinctively fears another government overthrow and so you've decided to ally yourself with people from as many nations as possible in order to acquire a safehaven in such an event?

p.s. when you flee, can I have your fooseball table?

Did these scientists run tests of any sort? Beacuse I'm all for it if they did, and the tests turned out positive.

Look, it's great if this shit works, really, but until it's shown that it does, in a scientific setting, it goes in my 'bullshit basket' along with so many other natural therapies.

When this country goes to shit, me and my bros will be the first with the AKs and the molotovs. Allah Akbar!

Okie doke. Make sure to put a cover over it so it doesn't get dusty.

Which is why colour therapy works so well! They can now have an obedient token black man or women -- heck why not have one of each?!? And lets chuck in a transgendered at the same time (Oh its soo much fun to place him/her in the same special committee as the Christian heritage folks). It's the best of both worlds I tell you! And if we're lucky, maybe we can get one of the MPs to undergo cosmetic surgery to make him look and smell like a bum, that way we've got all our aces covered!

It doesnt matter if "tests" were run or not, its the idea behind it that makes it a good thing. A day spa may not make women physically more beautiful but it may make them feel more beautiful. Thats the whole idea, mind of matter. We have our culture they have theirs, and im sure you have your Armenian one Oob, which im sure they have traditional medicines and all sorts :)

So....

Oob is down to "...but I think it's bullshit"

MrT is still stuck on "they can have their greenstone and prayers if someone will buy me a holiday"

Fairly compelling arguments.

Anyone got anything to add? or i'm going to go to bed.

Fund exorcisms and make it fair then.

Ahmeds right, we've come to a standstill here, I'm leaving too.

Oh wait before I go, here's the story I mentioned about a white south african claiming an award intended for 'african americans'. Classic.

I'll be dreaming of my holiday...

And I'll be laughing at Orientalists and racist Afrikaaners.

That guy is the fucking man.

Ha that is brilliant. That's classic. African doesn't mean having black skin, it means coming from Africa and most African-Americans have never even been to Africa. I find it amusing how I am classified a NZ European. I have never been to Europe and neither have my parents. I consider myself just a New Zealander.

is it not fair that these methods be scientifically proven before they are funded? and who were these scientists that recommended such treatments?

First, standard medical science can't control everything, in this case, something such as the placebo effect. Mind over matter.

The spiritual does can aid in healing.

Also, just to be picky. You can be friends with a race and still be racist against it. You don't have to hate a race to be racist.

i had the exact same attitude to this as shedevil, to start off.

Then i read ahmed's posts at the beginning. I reckon thats one of the most compelling arguments i have heard for a long time. And he changed my mind.

are you still at uni this eyar cass?

Yeah, Cass has made some very good points, surprising really, his posts usually consist of his sweaty balls, fez's mum, cock and so on and so on.

Samf made an interesting point whilst up in my office, as long as this isn't being used in place of traditional medicine but rather being used as after-care, in order to help them heal mentally (ie. it's more a spiritual medicine than anything) then that isn't so bad. But if it was the case like those mormons/christians that refused their very sick baby actual medical help and instead prayed and the baby died, then I would have to say that it is wrong. But for all I know it is just spritual aftercare.

Not so bad really.

EDIT// I think i'm still half asleep, my post doesn't make much sense to me, sort of Hambeast-esqe?? Fuck, I hate mornings <_<

Haha I was half pissed and feeling argumentative.

Yeah i'm back at uni. Also Ryan has talked me into writing a weekly column.

Warning, long post. I mulled over this with Maus last week and have been thinking and reading a little since then.

It's hard to tell whether or not you can really separate the placebo effect from genuine medicine. Using the mind to generate endorphins that help in healing and recovery (one explanation for the placebo effect) isn't really any less scientific than using the body's own immune responses to condition a response to illness (vaccination).

Maori tend to get very bad outcomes from New Zealand's Western style health system. They tend to get significantly better medical outcomes from a more holistic approach, meaning the 'whole person' is cared for - physical, mental, and spiritual. Maori practices in healthcare often focus more on identity (both personal and as Maori), on your lifestyle, and on making changes to that lifestyle in a Maori context.

All of which means that the healthcare doesn't just fix the specific physical health problem, but also promotes a change of attitude and lifestyle in a way that supports your identity as Maori. So whatever medical intervention takes place has a better chance of succeeding in the long term, because the process of healing is tied to your heritage, your lifestyle and to the people around you.

Also, linking healthcare to the community means that one person's lifestyle changes and feeling of connectedness 'ripple out' amongst their family and friends. So an entire community knits together; and suddenly not only are people more likely to live healthier lives, but they're having happier, more fulfilled lives all up - with all the benefits across the board that come with that.

Sorry if that's all a bit complicated. The bottom line is that Maori approaches to healthcare tend to improve health outcomes for Maori, and these therapies we've been discussing are part of an initiative to get better healthcare results for Maori from New Zealand's health system.

I doubt that the scientists and medical specialists on the health board would have approved this stuff if it didn't have some kind of benefit. There's no doubt that Western medical techniques can fix physical problems that pre-European Maori would have had no solution for. Now, combining that modern Western healthcare with traditional Maori approaches means that healing takes place in a way that is supported by your heritage and your community - and thus it has a better chance of working out for Maori in the long term.

$1.3 million is almost nothing. Especially when it may save hundreds of millions of dollars that would be wasted on medical care that wasn't properly followed up in the long term. A shot at significantly improving the medical outcomes of 10% of our population? I think that's worth 62 cents of my tax money, thanks.

*inserts $0.02 into the money slot*

Wow, this thread is all nice and full of confusion. Time to add to it.

First some questions:
1) are they claiming that their therapy is based on the placebo effect?
2) Are they claiming their therapy works better than the placebo effect?
3) Are they claiming their therapy has scientific foundations and benefits?
4) Are they claiming their therapy should be used to the exclusion of modern methods?

In the case of 1), fine and dandy, fund away. There's nothing wrong with the placebo effect. It works - to a degree - and I don't see any harm in using it to augment modern medicine.

If they claim 2), then prove it. There are plenty of statistical methods that can reliably compare Maori therapy to the placebo effect and modern medicine. They are independant of the actual practices as they are comparing results.

If 3), then prove it using the scientific method, get your results published and so on and so forth. If your results are negative then admit you were wrong and that you rely on the placebo effect. I don't see why homeopaths are so afraid to admit this.

and if they claim 4) then I call bullshits. At that point they are probably endangering lives and their funding should be canned pending an investigation.

Essentially, as long as Maori practitioners can prove that there is a benefit to their methods I see nothing wrong with funding it.

Everything I know about Maori healthcare suggests this: these spiritual therapies are being used not as placebos on their own, nor as replacements for Western medicine, but as a supplement to Western medicine that makes it more relevant to Maori and increases the chance of any medical intervention - surgery, whatever - having positive long-term effects on a person's health overall.

That's fine in my opinion. If people are willing to believe that this will help augment modern medicine then it will, that's how the placebo effect works.

I recommend people read this article which discusses the placebo effect and how it relates to natural medicines.

If I must reiterate.

'They' are not claiming anything. The original article didn't bother to ask any Maori what they thought or even consider the nature of the treatments, they just took some obscure parts of treatments for a sensationalist article to outrage National voters.

To suggest that this is purely an issue of placebo affect without having any real concept of what the treatments entail, save that somewhere they use pounamu, a stone sacred to Maori, and some forms of prayer, is equally sensationalist.

I suggest this debate be labelled ridiculous until everyone has a clue what they are talking about.

EDIT:

If interested you can read about some of these things here,here, and here. The level of detail is not great but the first site mentions the active ingredients in each treatment.

Excellent. Traditional medicines deserve proper recognition, and so do the spiritual therapies that are part of holistic healthcare for Maori.