I have been in a few recent feuds regarding welfare so I wanted to know what everyone's opinion of welfare is.

oo touchy subject. U could also ask if one were to start a country anew, would one incorporate welfare into the system.

hahahaha wtf i like welfare. welfare is good.

I think welfare is good within reason

nothing like a bit of ruthless simplification.

I do not support welfare.

:o :o would never have guess.

I like my student allowance. nuff said.

I like my student loan.

yeah i dont support welfare either. let those fucking proles sort out their own fucking problems. i got a car to buy and some fucking mini skirts too. Plus, 'i only pray to god when i need something.' its the me generation you kooks, better get used to it. i have no understanding of how anything works and im convinced i deserve this silver spoon shoved up my cellulite ass

who am I?

its a game, first to get it right gets a slap.

always those bloody brown people eh. Man they're like so brown, its just not right, why cant they be white and drive SUVs for a change.

You're me.

I'm going to express my opinions later on but for now I will let you knwo that I dont support welfare because I think epople should take personal responsibility. I don't think a portion of my income should go on other people. I don't see why if I can work hard others (excluding sick and disabled) can't. I want lower taxes. People should be contributing to the country in the form of employment.

thats right you're absolutely right. isnt it great how, when we're all born, we start on this great big level playing field, where we can all do and learn and work exaclty as we please, and the only way you could ever get behind is if you're a lazy black jerk off, who doesnt ever do anything useful, except clean yams suv. i work so hard i spend all my time reading and writing pointless things. i dont think a portion of my income should go on other people. thats why i dont have a student loan, i never got to the subsidised doctor, i never went to school because all the teachers are paid through other peoples taxes while im a little child, and consequently why i dont like welfare. does that make sense?

no. that does not make much sense. :hilarious:

No it doesn't make sense because there was no structure in it.

Now for my reasons:

*Personal responsibility - self explanatory.
*I would rather the dpb went and money was invested in subsidising childcare so that mothers or fathers can work and contribute to society.
*Welfare is abused by several people who should be working, I flat with two of them and it fucks me off that they are on benefits.
*Not having welfare means that people have to get out and get jobs, look after themselves rather than being dependent on someone else.
*I work hard and there are the jobs out there, other people should work hard too if they are physically able to, any job is better than no job.

yeah, like i said, fucking lazy blackies, they should work hard like me

its not as though children benefit from being with their parents is it. they'd be much better off at a childcare centre eh.

welfare is abused. so you throw the whole barrel out with a rotten apple at the bottom. cool. fuck the good apples.

if there is no safety welfare net, then those fuckers who have it just as good as us but are also really lazy, well they will crash and burn. i cant wait to see all the homeless people moving to mt fucking roskill, and you;ll have to go back to dunedin.

working hard is relative. an uneducated man in south auckland works hard with 10-12 hour shifts diggin holes with a spade. dont talk to me about working hard. any job is better than no job. yeah. apparently. thats why the sell mini skirts. theres good money in prostitution. those fuckers should get a real job.

i was being sarcastic in the last post u guys know eh :blink:

:o 100th post!

Yes people abuse welfare payments. But not everyone in the world (and not just places south of Mt Roskil) have such dandy lives. What if what you do can't pay for your family's needs? There are millions of reasons why people can't earn their way, and not all of them so clear and understandable for you and i.

Toby although Maori are more likely to be on a benefit than other races, I don't think you should stereotype like that.

There are positives and negatives to putting children into childcare. One of the positives is that the children't parent's are working so that will reduce their chances of growing up and being on a benefit. Another positive is that they learn to socially interact with others in a controlled setting at such a young age.
the negatives are that the child may nto receive the care they deserve/need (in which case they need to go to a better childcare provider. Sure children do need their parents but i don't think this is the biggest negative.

There are only a few reasons that justify being on a benefit. The first is being sick and physically or mentally unable to work. I don't think there should be such a thing as the artist's benefit as those people are able to work. As I said, any job is better than no job.

If people want to prostitute themselves I have no problem with it. Sure they are doing something mot people do not agree with but at least they are not on welfare. They made a conscious decision to sell their bodies and not to go on welfare. In a way that would be a harder decision than going on welfare.

Yes welfare is abused and harsher regulations need to be put into place but with the government's idea of a universal benefit I do not see it happening.

welfare is up not down according to this link
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10119014

yeah really good job of the government.*rolls eyes*

If you want lower taxes, Liz, expect to pay more for everything else. I know you LOVE user pays, but until people start getting paid a fair wage that reflects the increasing prices, nothing will be fair, and lower taxes won't mean shit.

How tempted I am to go live in Sweden with their 57% tax rate...

Edit: How do you not see the blatant sarcasm/piss taking in Toby's posts?

the idea of user pays makes perfect sense, in some situations, but you can hardly blanket everything with it, can you? if you earn less money, say, and you live in that hell hole south of greenlane, then you are more prone to get sick of violent diseases (statistics will show you. dont know which ones tho, but im 'saving that'.) :hilarious: anywho, so your a sick monkey, and you're living in south auckland, and you go to the doctor, but because you dont earn jack shit, you cant pay for it. hmmm. so how does the user pay, exactly? i suppose the best option is to let them die, and then ther will be no more family of scary black men. wow, two birds, one corrupt idea. excellent.

Exactly people arent born on a level playing field and thanks to the fantastic reforms of the 80s and 90s the space between rich and poor keeps growing bigger and bigger.

What if Liz you were born into a family where your parents beat you, couldnt afford to feed you properly, exposed you to drugs and crap. Cant wait to see how you would turn out! It's pretty hard to concentrate in school, get your education and become a financial success when you arent born to loving RICH people. Open your eyes to others lives not just your own

No welfare = more homeless, more crime, etc. You pay for the jobless one way or another, may as well throw them a few bucks and keep things clean.

That said, I'm on the dole atm, but I don't need it, I just figure free money is better than no money. I've paid enough tax, time to get it back rather than having it wasted on stupid government bullshit (which is what most taxes go to I figure).

Liz, in some ways I agree with you that there should not be welfare. Living in a society that has welfare gives people fewer incentives to work. The government needs to have stricter controls in place to prevent abuse of the system happening.

On the other hand, other members have pointed out the issue of crime, and that some people can't afford to live without welfare.

I assume you come from a well off family where you haven't had to struggle and your parents have always supported you. Some people are not quite so lucky.

Welfare needs tough controls in conclusion and more rigid testing. I have no problem with the invalids or the dpb, if those benefits are not abused. I do not support the artists benefit though.

*Restrains from replying to Elizabeth*

I'm pro-welfare. Bludgers are only hurting themselves. Our tax gets spent in far more ridiculous ways. Fuck the All Blacks.

welfare isnt just about ensuring theres less crime. its not just about 'oh, how are those poor people going to affect me now?' have some compassion eh?

*incredulous*

Toby, I am in agreement about welfare not just being about crime. I recently was made aware that the gap between wealthy and poor in New Zealand is increasing, this has shocked me.

As the saying goes, "all things in moderation", welfare should be the same.

What sux is when you know people who are on welfare who really shouldn't be on welfare. Why are these people on welfare when they could easily be working? The government does need to answer this question.

:blink:

State welfare keeps people addicted to the state. It is a response to poverty, yes, and it has a demonstrable effect on poverty, but that poverty is caused by the same system that exists through the support and propagation of the state: capitalism. The state simultaneously causes and treats the illness, but always more of the former than the latter. Then, when someone says, "Hold on. Why exactly do we like the state supporting this system?", the state replies, "Welfare, remember? You'll starve without our handouts. Do you want to starve? Hm?"

Capitalism with welfare is preferable to capitalism without welfare. It's just never going to cure the illness, only treat the symptoms.

You stole my thoughts. Iw as just about to post the same thing when you posted that.

Yes, welfare does create a bad cycle, one that is hard to get out of. Why work when you can get money for nothing?

I know people who will only work 15 hours a week because "otherwise my benefit will get cut". This creates major dependency and people find it hard to get back into the work force. People find it hard to get back into the work force because why work when you can get money for nothing, employers like to hire someone who is currently employed, I don't know the mentality behind this but it is a fact.

Many people are on welfare, because, as I said earlier, inflation has happened and wages do not reflect this. I would rather the state would introduce a higher minimum wage as they have done in the last few years than people be on welfare. Having said that, many people get above the minimum wage.

Another factor that leads people to be in a trap of welfare is fussiness with jobs, why be a cleaner when you can get money for nothing?

i suggest a time limit on being on welfare.

My wild, crazy suggestion would be to pay cleaners for the work they do, rather than pay them as little as one can get away with. Cleaners work as hard as, if not harder than, the people whose toilets they clean, yet their pay doesn't remotely reflect that. Again, raising the minimum wage is another palliative that, yes, helps, but helps in a way that will never solve the real root of the problem.

What do you think the root of the problem is?

Things already discussed:
*growing up in a welfare environment.
*health issues.
*low wages, therefore no attraction to work.
*Fussiness of jobs.

Except for health, I'd say those are all further symptoms of a system which makes it possible/inevitable that some people get a proportionally far greater share of the world's wealth than they contribute through work - ie., through usury and ownership of capital. While capitalism continues to do its thing, the limitations placed on it by a welfare state and labour laws will only reduce the inevitable effects of the injustice. Meanwhile, the real sufferers of that system are kept safely away in other countries where they don't have to bother us. No minimum wage or good labour laws an awful lot of our consumables - a problem that will only get worse when Clark clinches a free-trade deal with China.