http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cf...jectID=10364049

Is it just me, or did he get off incredibly light?

I wish I could go around head bashing anyone who disrespect my cult...ure. Something tells me if he wasn't Maori/pulling the race card he wouldn't have got such a lenient punishment (and lets face it, 150 hours of community service is you doing jack all. I've seen people "shelving" at my old library job coming in for 30 mins then fucking off for the rest of the hours).

Yeah, Too light. Cases like this make me wish that you could sue for personal injury in this country.

The Dutchman probably deserved it.

EDIT: I hadn't actually read the poll question. Watch out, MrT, the people around here aren't racists, and don't take kindly to people trying to whip up bullshit anti-Maori sentiment.

they were extensive injuries and he got off lightly. He is supossed to be professional and that foreigners are not gonna know the customs/ how to react to a powhiri/haka. people laugh at them all the time. he must have been a fucking idiot, and he was representing our country to those tourists, he should be punished accordingly

hmm well I can't really comment on the sentance because I don't know what the standard sentance for headbutting is, but the guy definately should be punished. Its pretty arrogant expect foreign tourists to know the nuances of your own culture, and even if the guy was told not to laugh, he can't possibly know how serious it is taken.
(although I would like it to be safe to assume that they won't take it as seriously as Mr. Mitai-Ngatai did).

You're right, he did bring our country shame. This isn't the first time such an incident has occurred. In the late '90s, one Asian tourist was bashed with a club after laughing at some performing Maoris. It's not unusual that some people cannot understand a foreign culture at first and may find it a little funny.

This offender has only gotten off lightly because his actions seemed retaliatory, in defense of his culture, although as someone employed in the tourism industry, I'm sure they would have been briefed on expecting some laughs from a few tourists.

I say that tourist had it coming for him.

And as I pointed out to Tony Montana, imagine if we were enslaved by the Chinese. Whites would be forced to dress up like characters in Shortland Street and parliamentarians, then we'd dance to techno beats. That would be cool for one day, then humilitiating for years afterwards. If a Chinese laughed at me doing that, I would want to bash the shit out of him. Thus, I understand why arrogant foreigners who laugh at other cultures deserve to get smacked up.

I'm not sure that it is actually clear that he was laughing?

i would have headbutted the muthafucka. cunt laughin at me. you go to hell and you die.

Let's think about this. There's a guy, who as his CHOSEN profession, performs to tourists. No one put a gun to his head and told him he had to perform cultural displays.

The accounts of this alledged laughing are pretty varied and a few accounts registered it as a 'nervous smile'. And having seen some of these displays myself, a nervous smile is totally understandable.

The bench has totally disregarded the fact that this tourist didn't mean to offend the guy and he just flew off the handle. You dont see the All Blacks ripping into the crowd who boo during the haka, ala Cantona! (Although one game, the opposing team started walking towards us and crossed the halfway line, which they are not allowed to do, and several players went and stomped on their feet as they stepped over the line!).

Too much emphasis has been placed on culture, and not the other material facts.

He was enjoying the moment. People laugh and smile and smirk when they are enjoying things. I doubt he was being a smart alec or anything.

The shortland street point is based on the idea of being forced into doing that job, which quite clearly is not the case in NZ.

In defence of the performer, although the article does not state it, Im pretty sure they warn the tourists before hand to please not smile or laugh or they will fuck your ass up. Ive been on Tamaki Tours twice and this was made very clear.

This is probably the main reason he got off so easy.

Edit: oh and stop trying to make it look like Maori are getting specially treated in this case. It was the situation that gave cause. If it were a white guy doing the performing he would have gotten the exact same sentence

The powhiri is about lifting tapu in order to welcome visitors to the marae. It is a sacred thing, and not something to be laughed at (although I understand the tourist was only smiling). Because the warrior is issuing a challenge to the newcomer, it is pretty important that the newcomer respects that challenge. It is taken very seriously by Maori, despite it being commodified into a spectacle for tourists.

There are two issues here, for me. Firstly, what Hauser said. If you were having a funeral, Mr T., and some tourists came along and started laughing, or whatever, you would be justifiably angry about it, and probably wouldn't get too heavy a sentence if you dealt them some minor injuries. Why? Because it's an important ritual in European culture, it is a sacred thing, and should be respected. Maybe you wouldn't react violently in a church, but that would be an issue of protocol within the institution which you are protecting (you wouldn't act violently in the church not because you don't want to, but because that's not what's done) -- as a warrior, the protocol dictates that you respond in the manner that this guy responded (when someone disrespects the powhiri, they're challenging you and marking themselves out as the enemy, so you put them in their place).

Secondly, if the guy was there to see a bit of Maori culture, marvel at the dancing and all the weapons, then at what point did he want to stop seeing Maori culture? Did he really want to engage in Maori culture, or did he want a cleaned up, sanitized version? Because if he wanted to engage in a Maori ritual, getting headbutted sure let him know that he was getting the authentic experience. If that's not what he wanted, then the 'small world' ride at Disneyland is probably more up his street. As far as I'm concerned, the guy payed his $50, and should be demanding his money back if he didn't get headbutted in those circumstances.

At the same time, he should get some sort of sentence, because his actions are also governed by the Western state. There are twin imperatives at play in such circumstances, and I think it's up to us, as a colonial nation, to negotiate and compromise between the two. :brash:

That's pretty much exactly what I was going to say but I couldn't be fucked typing it.

Here's a question: who's paying the guys medical bills?

No one should get a free pass or special consideration when headbutting someone because it's 'in their culture' or because the guy 'had it coming to him'... it's not a path we should go down. Kind of disturbing that any of you feel the need to be apologetic for someone who just violently attacked a tourist.

By the way, the first person to pull out the race card in this thread (ie. accuse another poster of racism) gets a kick in the crotch. My senses tell me someone's going to do it...

His traveller's insurance, probably.

When I've been in similar situations they have informed us it is polite not to laugh but they don't warn that you'll be illegally assulted for doing so.

If some stranger pulled a finger at a white guy walking down Queen St, and the white guy head butted him, do you think he would get a harsher sentence?

No culture should be reason to brake the law, which is what happened here.

This situation only works if they paid to observe the funeral. And if they did start laughing, I would remove them from the funeral, not try to crack their skull. I don't go round head butting babies in cinemas when they start crying or talking louding asking what everything is, even if I wanted to.

All protocols are still bound by law. Do Maori in general believe that their culture is above the law?

I'm sure he would have appreciated ayou will be violently and illegally assulted if you look even slightly disrespectful" warning beforehand.

Well, I don't think sentences for simple assault get much harsher than community service, but I don't think it's a particularly apt analogy.

But, if you think it is an apt analogy, turn the question around:

If some stranger pulled a finger at a white guy walking down Queen St, and the white guy head butted him, would it be reported in the national news?

I don't think so, but in that moment I think the guy was more interested in respecting tapu than in acting within the bounds of a Western legal system. Which is why his sentence was mitigated, not quashed.

If the white guy lived in a world where it seemed like white people excuse their illegal actions via their culture then yes. Thankfully I don't see many white people going around saying "My culture lets me break the law" and having their sentence mitigated.

Perhaps I should revert back to the old western style of hitting housewives. Or beating up my children. Hopefully my dedicated belief in this culture will help reduce my sentence.

You really think? Well my understanding is the Marijuana is still a classed as illegal.

In fact in 2000 3695 people were arrested for dealing in cannabis and 3003 people were convicted. The average sentence was a fine of $445.09 and 14 months in prison. (From NORML Website)

So far so good.

Yet in the same period 4550 people were arrested for possession or use of cannabis and 3503 were convicted. The average sentence was a fine of $195.11. (From NORML Website)

Now lets look at that. Not a single person done for possession was sent to prison

In the eyes of the law:

"Possessing or using Class C drugs (buds and leaf) or Class B (Oil and Hash), the maximum sentence is 3 months jail and/or a $1500 fine." (From NORML Website)

Why has no-one been sent to jail for possession? I can't believe that out off over 3500 done for possession in 2000 werent repeat offenders.

But Kiwi Culture allows this to happen because it is just that... smoking pot is part of Kiwi Culture.

Were they all white?

Nope... but they were all Kiwis.

So one culture isn't getting a different treatment to another in regards to the same offence. Technically from the information given, we can't even assertain that. Nor would I call what they do part of the Kiwi culture (4k offences a year? that's not even a drop in the kiwi population, plus there is no mention of how many of them are actually reoffenders).

You miss my point... I am saying the New Zealand culture turns somewhat of a blind eye to marijuana offences... Compare that to other cultures where any drug offences are more severly punished or at least their drug laws adhered to to a greater extend (even in countries where their laws are closely comparable to ours)

Maori culture - is for sure a subset of NZ culture. But NZ is just a subset of Asia/Pacific culture, which is a subset of world culture. You pick out Maoris as an example where you feel culture overides the law... I just selected a numerically larger culture to argue against your point. The reasoning stands and is sound

Maus hit it on the head. A common problem among so many right wing arguments is the inability to put yourself in the other persons shoes.

If I walked up to a militant christian and said I raped baby jesus or something like that and he hit me, i'd deserve it. Although that's a more extreme example, it's the same thing. People get really offended about this stuff, the situation is different than if he randomly jsut headbutted someone because they laughed and he doesnt' like laughing. So they deserve different penalities.

Also, generally people don't go to jail for headbutting someone else. A friend of mine headbutted someone at the waterfront and got community service also.

Ahmed was damn right about your post Maus, all very true.

Your last paragraph was particularly interesting, and indeed I think some Maori would regard themselves as actually operating independently of the colonial Western institution that is our State. Interesting, the Treaty of Waitangi here would come into play if this actually occurred on Maori land: if it did, te tino rangatiratanga (full chieftanship of the land) and te kawanatanga katoa (the complete goverment), both rights guaranteed to the Maori by the Treaty, would come into play, and I would think that in essence it would be fair if the Maori community was to punish the man himself if it viewed it as a damage to their own reputation. Of course, if this occurred on non-Maori owned land, everything Maus said applies.

Interestingly, Oob, about the 'race card', look at the title of the poll that MrT created:

Looks like the guy who started the thread pulled out the race card immediately.

Seems this topic is on the fingertips of many people on forums all across the country.

I've just been to Tim Selwyn's site - Tumeke and read his opinion... which I was pretty impressed with... but I like a lot of what Tim talks about even if I don't agree with all of it

Maus makes the most sense here, I agreed with everything he said.

Not even going to bother arguing with mrt here, its a lose lose situation

This thread is far too serious.

It is his job, and even though warnings were given its still not professional. As for the "not respecting" it, well it still doesnt mean he has the right to headbutt him. It would be like if someone laughed at me and i punched them, I had a reason but its still not appropriate.

The tourist was not actively trying to be disrespectful.

If I give Steveo prior warning before I kill him, it's still murder.

This situation is the same logic that allows Tama Iti to walk around in public with a firearm.

The law may be an ass, but it's the best ass we've got.

It's my culture to hate Turks. I expect all your support when I start headbutting them on sight. And if I don't get off with community service, the judge is a racist.

You lost the war, Armenian!

Yeah, it's not easy holding onto your land when you're a bottleneck between various large empires.

Imagine a Starcraft map with 9 players, 8 on the outside and one in the middle. The guy in the middle is obviously going to get fucked over. That my friends, is Armenia.

He did get punished, so he's not considered in the wrong. His punishment was lessened however that doesn't mean the court thinks he's in the right.

Only if he's a N00b.

Our enemies used hax.

NZ being a subset of Asia/Pacific culture is irrelevant in regards to law. This situation involves multiple cultures under the same law, including Maori, European, Asian, Pacific Islander, Indian, yada yada...

The disussion here is over the application of the same law in regards to differing cultures.

What about the guy that chopped down the Tree (on One Tree Hill)? He was definitely playing the race card and got away with no jail time. He said he wanted to "piss all the Pakehas off". I don't understand the political significance of that tree as it clearly did not represent 'White sovereignty' or the Treaty.