This is an issue that's going to keep coming up in the media, so I thought I'd raise it here.

Personally I am perfectly happy with our flag, but if we were to change it, I'd like to see the union jack retained to recognise the British part of the history and culture of this coultry - something that I haven't seen on a single flag proposal. I'd also like to see a koru or something similar to represent Maori culture, but I don't like the fern idea.
The day we adopt a rugby marketing device as our flag is the day I move to Australia (heaven forbid!)

There is a website with info and possible flags www.nzflag.com I personally would select flag number 5.

I think we do need a new flag and the arguments I am going to use are identification and moving forward and creating our own identity. I will elaborate later.

well looking at those flags, I'd probably pick the Jason Paul Troup design, but I'd stick the union jack up where the southern cross is on it.

Anything to get away from the auzzies.

:hilarious: exactly!

Hey dudes, I'm 1/4 Australian and proud of it baby. B)

I always liked the Friedensreich Hundertwasser design.

I didn't realise it was actually being considered as a flag.

yeah, that is a nice design. The only problem is that the green isn't really a 'flag' colour, so it wouldn't go with other countries flags. But then, that is a nice colour for a koru

Yes it is, look at the Irish flag.

The Irish flag is a completely diferent green. This one has more yellow in it.

kinda reminds me of the colour your shit turns when youve got food poisoning

cue link to tubgirl

Agreed about the variation in greens.

This is the flag that I want to replace the old one. It is the John Hepburn design.

http://www.nzflag.com/underconstruction.cfm

I wanna keep the old flag..I reakon its knee deep in history and a lot of the flag designs that i've seen are dumb including those on nzflags.com

Hmm this has just given me an idea for a Photoshop comp

Why not design a new flag for Australia? :D

I have already done that.

It used Goatse with a strategically placed star.

:hilarious:

A new flag would be nice. I know ppl want to respect the old one and that's cool. I just think NZ could be represented better. There are so many flags damn near identical to ours. What's so significant about the Southern Cross? We're not the only ones who can see it and as for the Union Jack, it's time to pull the tongue out of Britain's ass. I don't particularly like any of the designs that I've seen other than what's known as the "Maori" flag, but we all know that'll never happen.

I agree that we shouldn't have a union jack in our flag design. However, I do get tired when you ask people's race and they say I'm a new zealander, rather than I am a european. here's a thought, I'm of European descent. who really cares, we all know you are a new zealander but these people are not aknowledging their history and are just being stupid in my opinion.

Anyway about the flag, how many other countries, after 165 years (coz that was the most significant point in NZ history) have changed their flag? If the answer is none then it is probably in bad taste that we are wanting to change ours.

I do not like some of the arguments used as to why we should change it, one of them being, our current flag is too much like Australia. yeah its like australia, its also like Britain slightly (with the union jack) so who really cares. There is something different about one of the stars on ours though which differentiates from the Australian flag.

The flag is deep in New Zealand history, it's a shame that so many New Zealanders are ashamed of their history, changing our flag would show that even more, like people want to forget. I guess if you do change the flag then you do not aknowledge New Zealand history.

There is a reason why the flag was chosen in the first place and why it has remained for so long. Its a good design, it recognises New Zealand history.

I'm now going to the other camp, don't change the flag.

i really dont understant what the fuck... if you live in new zealand, are you not entitled to cal yourself a new zealander? what is the problem here? their personal history is that they have lived in new zealand for x number of years. people are entitled to call themselves what ever they like.

changing the flag is dependant on our relationship with britain. if we became a republic we'd have to change the flag.

I cant see how wanting to change the flag means people are 'ashamed of their history.' thats not the idea at all.

'its a good design' is not really a relevant argument for keeping the flag. you should really use 'in my opinion...' :hilarious: :hilarious: :hilarious:

Do you go around asking "what race are you?" - that's quite ignorant. The idea of race stems from racism. "I'm a New Zealander" isn't how you would answer that question anyway as it states nationality. If someone were to say to me that they were white or Pakeha, for me it goes without saying that their family tree dates back to Europe - it in no way shows they're not acknowledging their "roots". Call yourself what you want but don't call others stupid when you're...*edit...nevermind...

It would not be in bad taste to change our flags if enough ppl agree it's time to break from Britain [who don't rule us] and get rid of a constellation that's not unique to NZ [as the whole Southern Hemisphere can see it]. How does this amount to "NZ is ashamed of her history and wants to forget it"?

Wow, our flag's differentiated from Australia's by the addition of one star. Good spotting Lizzy.

We have a lot of history with the flag since it was made but the flag isn't the be all and end all of recognising NZ history ra ra ra. Do you even know why it was chosen in the first place? Looking at it now, is it really representing NZ?

I agree with old Mandarin up there. Sure, we've got some history with it, but that history isn't suddenly going to be forgotten just because we change the damn flag.

I also don't understand how a lot of people are go on about "People died for that flag". Bullshit. They died because they were drafted, or failing that, they died for the country, not the flag.

Just to clarify, I don't randomly go up to people and ask what race they are. i work part time in music/market research and when you ask people their race, if they are caucasion they get pretty offended at being called European, we all descended from Europe and I'm proud of my history.

It is not the flag itself that people are saying they died for, it is what the flag represents. I don't know if its because I have had family who were in WW2 and a brother in the army, but I want to keep the flag we have now. I think New Zealand is trying too many new things and not all of them are things we should be doing.

I personally want to stay a part of the Monarchy, I know it virtually means nothing, it is just a title. However, we can't deny our history so we might as well embrace it rather than trying to break free.

No researchers I've dealt with have asked "what race are you?" - once I've gotten "what's your ethnic background?" but not what you're saying. You make it hard to believe anything you say and even take some of your posts seriously. I'm glad you love being known as "European" but as someone said, it's one's right if they don't want to be called one, why call them stupid for it?

As asked before, please explain how history is being denied by changing the flag? "Break free"? We're already free from Britain.

Now that was an offensive post, I am serious all the time, believe me on this one.

All i am saying is, there is nothing wrong with being called a European and the ways people have said it in the research question (I don't stick to the script but will say what is your ethicity) leads me to believe that they are not proud of their history. That is how I've taken it.

To change the flag, and this may be a pro change flag reason but it creates a fresh start for NZ and doesn't SHOW our history. Yes we have broken free from Britain in terms of legislation of governership but until we are a republic (though I don't want to be, but it will happen) I think we have to keep the old flag.

Oh dear. First of all, you haven't even asked them why they prefer not to be called European so jumping to the conclusion that they're ashamed of their past is a tad dizzy, Lizzy. I would say NZ's past wouldn't even come into their reasoning.

Once again, while you feel nothing's wrong with being called European, others aren't stupid for not wanting to take on that label. We aren't part of Europe and they make some terrible movies after all so simmer down.

Our present flag shows we belong[ed] to Britain. A new one could say many things like we belong to ourselves - that's history in itself.

I see your point about moving forward Jaded Mandarin, but I don't feel that we need to change the flag.

I just feel that getting a new flag is a bit of a fad, its what several people want, but its not necessary in my opinion.

Jaded, no I haven't asked people why they don't wnat to be referred to as NZ European, but the truth is that we all have european blood in us, maybe only a little bit but it is still there and we should recognise it.

changing the flag could create a lot of controversy, if you look at most of the flags on the website for the nz flag they all incorporate a Maori design. now, whilst I am against it the motive for changing the flag is to move forward, if it is incorporating a Maori design then you are disregarding the new ethnic groups in New Zealand, which is not moving forward.

If we change our flag, the most appropriate thing is to incorporate something significant to all ethnic groups, otherwise it is NOT moving forward.

Hold on, so by getting rid of a flag that originates entirely from Britain and replacing it with something that has some influence of the native ppl of the land, we're moving backwards?

Maori design? That's one way of looking at it. The fern and koru are NATIVE plants, found in the backyards of Maori homes and believe it or not, white homes and any other home too. It's not like the designs are incorporating Maui capturing the sun.

I'm flogging a dead horse with the "European" thing so we'll leave it at that.

bottom line is the old flag should stay until racial disputes are sorted out and until we become a republic.

My opinion is that the New Zealand flag shouldn't be changed until we separate from the monarchy, and I favour us remaining with the monarchy at this point in time.

Don't get me wrong, I also believe New Zealand needs to continue to foster the development of its own identity. I understand that products such as The Lord of the Rings films and trash like the America's Cup are apparently of crucial importance to our country. But for me, a lot of the flags that have been turned out by these designers totally reek of brand wankery. Advertising. They may indeed be trying to reflect the character of our country, however in my opinion they're far too bright and informal to be a national flag. I'm getting kind of sick of the constantly recurring "Long White Cloud" and Silver Fern themes as well. I like the design of the current flag and don't feel we need to get rid of it until we've left the monarchy.

When we do become a republic, I hope we don't get one of these nasty brand insignia flags. The flag's supposed to be merely symbolic of a country, not representative of its people (how do you accurately represent, in a flag, the entire society of a country as hugely diverse as New Zealand?) and it is definitely not supposed to be some kind of sick, socially-engineering advertisement like a Silver Fern.

I smell a photoshop comp coming on

Dustless, well said, I agree with you. :clap:

I'm against the advertisting scheme too but looking at the symbolism of our flag, it would be appropriate to change it - monarchy or not.

Now, I've already stated that I am against both changing.

however, if they were to change, it would make sense for the flag to change at the same time as we become a republic.

Wow the votes are 5 for and 5 against now. Its a close one!

It is a tie. It is pretty much the same result in official stats.

Here is another argument for keeping the flag. I believe that the percentage who want to change the flag must reach 65% before changing, that is a clear majority, 50% isn't.

Ugh, that's not even a reason for keeping the flag. Aside from that, anything over 50% is a majority. 51% constitutes a clear majority when we're talking about hundreds of thousands of voters.