http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../ixnewstop.html

Is this British comedy or what?

It sounds fairly similar to stuff that I used to encounter at high school in the form of religious education. So on one hand the traditionalists are bitching about 'indefinable values' and namby pamby emo taking over from academic learning, and on the other they call for greater freedom for religion in schools as well. :shrugs:

As long as the rest of the curriculum is adequately dealt with, I wouldn't see this program as being a problem in itself.

I rather see them teach the kids how to march and shoot (which is not really necessary in this day and age) than this emo crap! At least marching and shooting involves discipline (which quite frankly, a lot of students lack).

So they can be unhappy and emotionally stunted, but at least they're 'disciplined' and know how to use guns for no particular reason.

Sounds like a recipe for trouble-free schools.

Prior to the 1960s where schools had such discipline (corporal punishment included), students didn't misbehave to the unacceptable levels seen today with grafitti, vandalism and being openly disrespectful towards teachers.

Quite a lot of the times, emotions overrun rational thinking. With actions on the spur of the moment being a common example. I've had enough of this PC bullshit how teachers aren't even allowed to give students a good bollocking like they used to. Hell! Bring back the cane!

By being taught how to aim and fire a bolt action rifle does not mean that they are given access to a fuckin' AK-47 24/7! Back in those days, it's considered almost a rite of passage for a boy, but these days the emasculating PC brigades have demonized such initiatives as recipes for the cloning of the Columbine shooters. Quite a number of farmboys in this country grew up knowing how to shoot and hunt and they turned out O.K., because the care and responsiblity for a firearm means that they have to be disciplined with it.

Instead of emotional education, schools should serve their true purpose- equip the future work force with the necessary skills and basis for higher professional education. At least schools in the Far East consider which four subjects are the most important- maths, physics, chemistry and biology.

If an idiot student gets all angsted up and jumps off a bridge to die, that's his/her human right too! LOL!

What the fuck? Maybe you are into some sado-masochism shit, but I sure as hell don't want the cane.

All the cane did was teach people not to get caught, and built up a fuckload of resentment in the students of the day. I know my dad would probably beat the shit out of any of the teachers who caned him at school, I'd say he almost hates his old school teachers.

On the other hand, I actually respect my teachers, and I would go and talk to them as adults.

I mean seriously, if someone beats you with a cane, what respect will you give them? Not real respect, only a fake respect so you don't get the cane again.

Maybe if I was caned for the crap I got into during high school, I would be a better person today. Pain and humiliation are good sources of motivation for betterment.


By no means would I be a sado-masochist as neither giving or receiving pain would give me pleasure. Although, I would feel dutiful if I have been instructed by a superior to kill or inflict pain on a very deserving recipient. Like working as an executioner.

Depends on who the person is. If it's some thug in the street, I'd fuckin' chop his head off for revenge! But if I get caned by an authority figure like a teacher (say I'm a very misbehaving student) or a policeman/prison guard (like a serious criminal in Singapore), then yes, I would change my ways.

Yeah, and look at what happened after all those pent up emotions got released after the war had blown over. Repression is not the answer.

I'd say this sort of thing is a step in the right direction. The problem is, even pretty young kids are smart enough to see through this cheesey "worry box" shit. They'll just mock it. It'll be a playground joke.

Beating people to stop them disrespecting you doesn't make them better people. And I don't think you've been looking around enough, because vandalism and graffiti sure did exist before the 1960s.

Yeah, I bet a lot of middle aged people in China wish they couldn't beat up their teachers and drown them in fountains like they did in the Cultural Revolution in the 1960s! I bet they miss those days!

There was still corporal punishment at my school in the 1990s. It wasn't the cane, true. But it wasn't a positive thing. Did you get corporal punishment dealt out to you, Chiang? Doesn't sound like it:

Yeah, a person who doesn't mistakenly admire the cane because they don't actually know what they're on about.

Or good ways to breed more revenge and anger and vandalism and disrespect. Tell me again, were those teachers in the Cultural Revolution 'bettered' for their pain and humiliation?

Yeah, but times have changed. Simple as that. It was a rite of passage back then, but now it's not because we don't have a conscripted military anymore or a need for thousands of potential soldiers. So the farmboys can keep their guns, certainly. But this has bugger all to do with school education.

Perhaps this is why you feel that Chinese people lack 'race pride'? Because they've been taught that their history and culture is not a priority? And schools in the West do still place emphasis on maths and biology. I see nothing wrong with emotional guidance alongside academic learning, simply because you won't grow up to be a healthy or productive worker or person if you're emotionally wrecked.

I get the feeling you have never been closely involved with anyone who has committed suicide or tried to, or you wouldn't have said something so callous. Please correct me if I'm wrong - then I'll know you're a psychopath rather than just plain ignorant.

I'll answer this one in the weekend. Having a job beats sitting on the Internet all day doing sweet fuck all.

= standard Adolf response to terminal ownage

Seconded.

I wonder the the rancor is still a mod.

Looks like we're entirely moderator free... even the Rancor. So nobody's going to the lair...

I'm still amazed at what's happened. Some people take the Internet way too seriously.

I don't want to waste a bloody good Friday night on a forum! I've worked 10 hours a day for the past week.

Can't you provide some kind of reasoned response now?

"I'll answer on the weekend" usually means, "Let me wait until this thread disappears so I don't have to face defeat in public".

I thought you believed in facing up for an argument, as you accused Anti-Flag of not doing?

I recommend everyone read A.S. Neill's "Summerhill" for some thoughts on this. Summerhill was a school that was self-governed by the students, where the rules were decided on by the students, and kids only attended classes if they wanted to. Neill found that away from the restrictive environments of authoritarian schools with punishment and the like, children would live out their selfish stage early on and then develop a social conscience and work ethic that meant they worked and got on voluntarily, rather than out of fear of pain.

I wish I didn't have so much research stuff to get through at the moment...

Intriguing. Has the experiment been repeated elsewhere in the world?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerhill_School

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_school

http://www.summerhillschool.co.uk/pages/ab...summerhill.html

We'll have to wait and see on that one. The instructional staff could be of a psychology/counselling qualification and will somehow manipulate the minds of the students.

I've been whacked by a pole by more than one family member over my childhood and I felt sorry and remorseful for my actions everytime afterwards. It's perfectly O.K. and standard in Chinese culture.

The Cultural Revolution was a complete reversal of Confucian principles of students respecting teachers and children respecting their parents.

From a moral perspective (which most people have), betterment exists when one actually feels sorry after facing their punishment. The teachers had done nothing to deserve their mistreatment (their accusations had been dubious politically) and the students dealt them such tortures anyway.

This section's just for Samf:

This would be different to someone who knows what they've done is wrong and faced up to the punishment, be it corporal or otherwise. They actually have this remorse.

As for the Chinese education system, prior to a more 'Westernized' approach, some traditional tutors or teachers used to ceremonially slap the hands of new students with a cane to symbolically demonstrate authority. Such practices had been occuring for centuries. Usually, students could be of mixed age groups with one tutor being responsible for multiple facets (primarily language, but music, chess and art could also be offered, depending on the man's expertise). Like parents, teachers were also permitted to corporally punish their students for misbehavior.

Such practices were eroded away with the appearance proper schools (based on a Western curriculum) since the 1910s. Corporal punishments were also adopted as such practices were of common ground for the Chinese and Western cultures.

The CCP removed corporal punishment from the education system since 1949 and this is partially responsible for the said atrocities by students against their teachers in during the Years of Madness (Cultural Revolution). Never the less, the Commies initially promoted the Confucian principles of students respecting their teachers.

In Taiwan however, corporal punishment in schools is still in place (the KMT is very conservative and traditional). Either way, the average Chinese student demonstrates far greater respect for their teachers than their Western counterparts as cane or no cane, their instilled values call for students to be subordinated to their teachers.

In the age of universal education, the Chinese students embrace their opportunities in education as it is necessary for a better future (some of them may have illiterate grandparents who missed their chance during the decades of poverty).

The White man has never heard of such struggles and take education for granted.

Education is more than books and manuscripts if that knowledge is not going to be used for the right cause. Discipline and good behaviour is necessary for an ordered society, which is why children are taught to behave well firstly by their parents and later in life by teachers. Ethics may not be a great focus for education but it is nonetheless a necessity.

To be frank and fair, there's no better education for discipline than the military or an organization that functions along military lines. Firearms training (what I went through in both high school and the Cadet Corps) is a great source of discipline too. If you fool around with a gun, there's great chance of you killing or maiming someone.

Lacking race pride has nothing to do with education. The "inferiority complex" arose from the late Qing dynasty where the Yellow man's kung fu was of no match to the marvels of Western industrial and military power. Ever since, the Chinese have begun this obsession for scientific education. Science and engineering will always define national power. You go ask a Chinese child what he/she wants to do when grown up it would be scientist tied with athlete (usually from the boys, but that answer phases out when PE class wears them down through the years), astronaut (the recent space exploration programs pay off in insipiring a nation's youngsters), trailed behind by pilot/sailor/PLA, the rest don't matter since it's not really prestigious nor romantic for someone who's age group likes to think big.

History has been heavily watered down in the Chinese curriculum as 5000 years and most of it being chaotic garbage will simply clutter up brain space for math and science. They focus on the moments of glory, but who gives a flyin' fuck when the past 300 years their country has been defeated by the White man? The ancient Chinese scholars failed to usher in the Industrial Revolution because they spend centuries fucking their brains over with crossword games and poetry. Science is the fuel of the Dragon!

"Emotional guidance" is a load of bullshit used by the education ministries to gain more of the parents' cash. The best source of of reinforcement would be instilling inspiration. Whether you're a student, a businessman or a commander, inspiration is the powerful spark that ignites the potential of achievement. One resource for inspiration is pride. Only a deafeatist is completely absent of pride.

I don't know anyone who's committed suicide, but there are times where I feel that I should take my own life. It's just that I never go ahead with the plan after a reality check.

I wouldn't say that I'm a psychopath, but if I'm the perfect criminal, I'd work as an assassin and sell death. I'd do a reality check on such a possibility but there's no honor in that, it's just like being a mercenary- a soldier of money.

Look, mate. This thread has yet to disappear and I've promised to come back.

At least I state my reasons for absence (tradition dating back to the Hitler Metrosexual thread) and I always promise to come back. Anti-Flag (according to you) has a tendency to start hit-and-run threads.


I'll write a response to Summerhill tomorrow, since this is way past my bedtime. (The more I stay up late with the Internet or TV the greater the risk I'll have of insomnia. I also hate feeling like shit in the morning.)

I have to agree. Guys, it's pretty lame to criticise him for delaying his response. That's the whole idea of the turn based argument, you have time to say something decent rather than spewing out what first pops into your head.

If such a system is indeed so powerful and advanced, why has it failed to become mainstream? I am doubtful that such schools produce above average grades.

Well Adolf, I have to eat my words. You returned as you said you would and posted some genuinely interesting stuff. :( Sorry. Let this be the last time I make a cock of myself by accusing you of things at random.

Perhaps, in that context, we can say that it's the values and ingrained respect that make the difference - rather than the cane or rod. I agree that teachers should lead by inspiration as well, but corporal punishment is not the way to do it, at least not anymore.

Steady on. There are still large groups of people in New Zealand who do struggle to access education and succeed - of all races, including disadvantaged "White" people. Apathy towards education is rampant, but it's not universal.

You'll forgive me for speaking as an outsider, but it's pretty unfair to blame all those dead scholars for failing to usher in the Industrial Revolution. Nobody told them. They didn't know they were supposed to do it. The point I'm getting at here is that while you might look back and say that they failed, values at that time were very different and science was not at the top of the priority list. China had no technological rivals in Asia until the European arrival - ie, it simply wasn't necessary to innovate so furiously. I remember reading about a Chinese loom that would have ushered in just the kind of change you wrote about - but it just wasn't economic when human labour was so cheap and easily available.

Back on topic - I still feel that for someone who previously said "Bring back the cane!", you haven't provided any convincing argument that corporal punishment would create any change for the better in modern New Zealand schools.

Ach! You're forgiven. The Chinese man isn't suppose to back down on his words; what was said should be done.

Punishment can be inspiring as the logic goes that pain leads to humiliation, evolves into remorse, the offenders then change their thinking to redeem themselves as worthy human beings again.

As for inspiring an average or poor student to do well, there are other options rather than punishment and this isn't really part of the discussion.

Once again, it's that difference of attitude. The Orientals (Chinese, Koreans and Japanese) take their education obsessively as it was recommended both in the home, school and by their culture. We can almost conclude that it's part of their cultural identity to view education like this and have this drive to succeed.

Whites on the other hand have few cultural motivations for such a drive towards educational success. This has been fuelled by the rags to riches stories of people who had not been incredibly educated and manage to become multi-millionaires or richer. In the post-Industrial age, the achievements of the Industrial Revolution only serve as an inspiration for expressing racial bigotry while most of the said bigots cannot even explain in technical detail how something like the steam engine works!

Technically if the Qing monarchy had learned their lessons from previous defeats and managed to begin industrializing in the 1860s, there's a chance that China may have reached the level of power of Imperial Russia at the time.

The bitch Empress Dowager Cixi preferred to use tax payer money to build a brilliant summer garden (Yiheyuan) instead of modernizing the navy (her takeover of the allocated funds was technically illegal). This resulted ultimately in losing Taiwan to the Japs after defeats in the seas. If the Chinese had a leader who chose to industrialize earlier, then perhaps the situation would not be so bad and they could stand up to the Japs again in WWII

I've always had this adolescent fantasy of pulverizing the Summer Palace with a Type 99 tank. It'll take some time for me to switch between roles of gunner (it has an auto-loader, so my arms will be free) and driver, but I'll get the job done in three days. So what if I've pummelled a UNESCO World Heritage Site, at least I removed a symbol of shame from that country's past. I'll probably need helicopter replenishments to finish the mission and keep my stomach full.

Since we dropped the cane, the numbers of truants, delinquents and incidents of severe bullying has increased (ask any high school teacher who's been teaching for over 20 years and they'll tell you the same thing). When you walk down some of the streets of this country, there's graffiti on walls and fences (in Singapore, such incidents would be punished by caning, which acts as a very good deterrent). Corporal punishment is quick and relatively less costly then sending someone to prison.