END THE OCCUPATION OF PALESTINE!



STOP NEW ZEALAND'S SUPPORT FOR WAR AND STATE TERROR! STOP MAKING TRAINING EQUIPMENT THAT ENCOURAGES VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN! PEACE AND JUSTICE NOW!

Auckland University Students for Justice in Palestine are calling on New Zealanders and all people who empathise with those who live through occupation, violence and terror to Activate for peace and justice in Palestine, For a world without war and an end to violence against women.

Oscmar; a Mount Eden based company that is a designer and producer of military training simulators, used throughout the world to train forces from Israeli Special Forces to United States and Australian armies of occupation to Indonesian death squads, to name their worst customers.
Oscmar is the biggest private contributor to war and injustice in Auckland!

Close Auckland's very own laboratory of death!
Rallies to Free Palestine! 25 Shaddocks Street, Mt. Eden

OSCMAR: THE SCIENCE BEHIND COLONIALISM-NIGHTMARE ON SHADDOCKS STREET
Wednesday 23 November 4pm to 5pm –(come dressed as victim of war-fake blood and wounds)
OSCMAR: MONEY FOR MURDER IN PALESTINE-MADE IN AUCKLAND, USED IN GAZA
Thursday 24 November 4pm to 5pm-(bring pictures of Palestine to paste on the walls of Oscmar)
OSCMAR: VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN-INTL. DAY TO END VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN
Friday 25 November 4pm to 5pm-(bring flowers to leave at the doors of the killers)


FOR MORE INFORMATION CONTACT OR TO GET INVOLVED :ohamed:_USE_THE_AT_EMOTICON_:ihug.co.nz

I'd rather watch porn.

....what?

This is some seriously misplaced activism. It's all "hey i'm angry about this so i'll attack some LOCAL COMPANY with about three degrees of separation from what I am actually angry about because for some reason I think that it will make the slightest fucking difference"

Let's all damage local businesses to promote world peace. At best you'd burn the place down and guess what? These military groups would get their training simulators somewhere else. It's not going to change a fucking thing and just make you seem like some misguided angry little kids with no fucking clue.

If you're really pissed off why don't you go to Israel and punch Israelis in the tits? The simple fact of the matter in this conflict is that neither side is completely right, that is why there is no easy solution. But hey attacking local business is going to be a great way to prove whatever it is you are trying to prove.

I am beginning to get pissed off at how stupid people can be.

The more companies like this that are hit, the better., and don't worry, i plan on going to "israel". Good times.

I tell you what Happy, next time there's a rally for Copraphillia, and demanding the right to eat your shit in public (insert other important liberties that you might be interested in here) i'll let you know yeah? Until then, you might just have to continue to write your articles on such important issues, and fish for compliments while doing so. Be patient.

Hey how about you ignore everything I actually say in my columns and focus on the garnish for the masses? That'd be the clever thing to do.



Explain how doing this is going to make the slightest difference to anything, and why it's not simply a case of grandstanding and misplaced angst.

All human action, save instinct and a few other exceptions, is motivated by selfishness in some way or another. In this instance, Anti-flag feels the need to do something about the shitstorm in Palestine, so she advertises petty little protests in order to feel like she's making a difference.

You can see this kind of thing all over the world, where people act ineffectively simply for the sake of doing something.

thats a very hobbesian view of human nature....

As someone who supports the right for Palestinians to have their own state (as well as Jews to have their own state in Israel), I really think it's a bit of a waste of time as Ahmed said to attack this little Mt Eden company.

All those who gain power, are afraid to lose it. Even the Jedi.

My world view kicks ass. I came to this understanding without the guidance of outside philosophy, although I am well aware that others share the same view and that I am hardly being original.

As a friend of a former employee of Oscmar and a proponent of technological advances in weaponry, I find your actions futile. If you have the balls, I suggest you join that Palestinians as a mercenary, perhaps then you'd can become a greater pawn in the scheme of things, should you choose to do so, I cannot wait to hear about that 5.56x45mm round that sent you to hell.



The AK-47 has unparalleled popularity and body count around the world, how come you bloody tree huggers don't go protest at all those Kalashnikov makers around the world, huh? I'm sick and tired of your Jew bashing!

Next time you start a thread, be sure to come back and debate like a man!

Where the hell is that SOB Anti-Flag when you need to debate with him?

He/she isn't into real discussion. An activist's time is precious, and Anti-flag prefers to simply post up a call for action and then vanish again, so that their points can't be disproven. In the meantime, they're working or planning another rally somewhere.

Anti-flag posts almost exclusively in World Events, and when they do return, it's normally just to get pissed off and call people rednecks or Nazis, rather than offer any meaningful discussion.

For example:

http://s6.invisionfree.com/Craccum/index.p...owtopic=334&hl=

http://s6.invisionfree.com/Craccum/index.p...ic=326&st=0&hl=

http://s6.invisionfree.com/Craccum/index.p...opic=441&st=120

*Reads up on Samf's advise, flips through the U.S. Army's 'Counter Terrorism for Dummies' manual for hit and run attacks.*

The best way to spoil a rally is to set up some sort of street vendor operation nearby, sell beverages (like home made lemonade for example) for cheap (you profit in their destruction), but make sure to lace that it with chillies so their throats gets extra sore after half a dozen slogans.


Whatever drugs he's on, he's made an opponent out of me.

Who the hell pays these activists?

Who here wants to see a student work report from Oscmar? Permission is currently pending from that student for it to be posted here. I just wanted to prove that Oscmar is a company that's friendly to the students of the University of Auckland. I'm going to debunk that nutjob's claim that Oscmar is a company of murderers.

All this proves is that University of Auckland students are part of the military-industrial complex. You might think that's a good thing, Chiang, but there are people who feel differently about the production of military equipment. Personally, I would have an ethical problem working for such a company, and I imagine Anti-Flag wouldn't be convinced that Oscmar using UoA students to help build weapons systems is morally sanctionable (not that I claim to speak on her behalf).

Before you insult me for the third time Chiang, I'm just pointing out that others might feel differently about this sort of thing.

The military industry is neutral, just like the manufacturing of kitchen knives. Kitchen knives can be used for the preparation of food, but some people use it as a murder weapon and it should be the murders that deserve judgement, not the makers of the knife.

The same applies to the weapons industry, which produces for law enforcement, private security and armed forces. It should be actions of the users and those who make decisions for the users that should be judged. Take an assault rifle for example, a policeman using it during a hostage situation to apprehend the offenders within the boundaries of the law is quite different to some criminal maniac who uses a gun to rob a bank.

Another classic example would be Germany's Mauser-Werk which supplied to both the Wehrmacht and the ROCA (deals gradually stopped prior to WWII). Their weapons were in the hands of both the Axis and Allies (China being the only Ally that used mostly German and Czech firearms).

There is no evidence that Oscmar deals their products to criminal organizations, therefore their neutrality remains. In the above report, no mentioning of any form of political indoctrination has made and it would be unlikely that a company would put such trivial matters ahead of product innovation and profitability.

If UoA students travelling through Israel during the summer found work with an underground Palestinian workshop that makes bombs, rockets and mortars, I'm sure that Anti-Flag would be jumping for joy! Such a case will be judge differently as no neutrality can be granted on the workplace as it would be owned and managed by the said militant.

Theoretically an arms company is neutral, BUT HOWEVER, as in today's capatilist society, companys exist to produce a profit for their shareholders, chances are they aren't totally neutral.

Wars means more military products, meaning more money for the arms company, and therefore the arms companies tend to be pro-war rather than totally neutral.

That doesn't mean they go out and actively try to start wars, but rather to just point out that there isn't really such thing as neutrality, especially in the corporate world. EVERYONE has an agenda.

Neutrality only disappears when the company claims to support certain political agendas. Oscmar has never made any such political statements.

Since arms companies don't indoctrinate their staff, it would be the employee's conscience whether the war should be supported.

The agenda of profit making being the oldest and highest priority.

And thus, Chiang, you prove us all right. The only ethics that govern the arms making industry are those of profits. Oscmar don't care whether their devices are being used by Israeli soldiers to aid them looting Palestinian villages and raping Palestinians, or by the Indonesian army to slaughter innocent civilians who are 'suspected militants'. This is why unrestricted capitalism in arms production is utterly disgusting.

Read more about the Military-Industrial Complex in the USA, and you'll see it's a shitload more than a simple manufacturing industry with no extraneous parts.

Like I said before, if a kitchen knife is being used a murder weapon, should the knife makers be held accountable? Armaments themselves are as neutral any other tool. Armaments companies (like those of other industries) strive to profit. Money making is a fundamental human activity since the dawn of civilization.

Once again you completely miss the point both Hauser and I tried to make...

Live in your fairy world if you wish, I really don't give a shit if you want to delude yourself.

A kitchen knife is not intended to kill people. It is intended to cut things in the kitchen.

Armaments are intended to kill people.

Analogy invalid.

Judgement should be reserved for the killers, not the ones who make the weapons. The Oscmar protest only highlights the Israelis and Americans while their products are known to be used by law enforcement and military clients that are currently not at war.

The prostitution 'industry' is completely immoral, unlike armaments manufacturing.

I live in the real world where industry is about innovation and profit making. If you hate the armaments industry so much then perhaps you should protest outside Oscmar too.

Hahaha, if you somehow think that prostitution, the sale of sex, is somehow worse than selling murder tools that have the sole purpose of killing people, get real.

Happy Ahmed successfully displays your failed analogy.

Defense protects a country while prostitutes spread VDs and ill morals. In the military and law enforcement, killing other 'people' is necessary in order to protect your own people from harm. Imagine an army fully disarmed, would they be able to confront an invader (with state of the art weaponry) with theit bare fists?

Moving back to the discussion of Oscmar, the bias of Anti-Flag's argument lies in the fact that Oscmar products do not specifically train troops in anyway (the claims of committing atrocities being an example) and it would be up to training program set by the clients.

Only your own country and its allies have a "defence industry". Countries you don't like have "war machines". I love the semantics game that is played around armaments production.

Yes, killing other people is sometimes necessary to defend your own people. And no doubt, if they have good weapons you need those as well. But what we are specifically getting at is that it is in the interests of companies like Oscmar that countries keep fighting and keep needing to acquire better and better weapons for their own defence, for reasons of profit - just as you said.

They accelerate the process of weapons buying and thus increase the likelihood and the devastation of conflict - which in turn generates fear which results in more weapons buying... The best scenario for the defence industry is a climate of fear, where countries continually purchase more and more lethal and elaborate weapons to defend themselves from other countries that are also arming themselves up. And remember, one country's 'invasion' or 'incursion' is another country's security measure.

Although it might spread them as a byproduct, prostitution does not spread VD and ill morals as its primary purpose. Weapons of war are primarily designed for the physical destruction of human beings. Big difference. Ahmed and Hauser are right.

This theory has been proven wrong. If you do something for someone and the only thing you gain is self fufilment through doing something for someone, then the act is not a selfish act by definition. Also, people commit completely selfless acts, such as sacraficing ones life to save anothers. You could argue they're simply doing it for the glory, but that's really pushing it and not really viable, some might be, most probably aren't.

I support what anti-flag is doing because I believe if you think something is wrong, you should do something about it. Even if you're a crazy Tamaki zealot.

Adolf, you remind me of a person i've seen on other NZ forums, you don't happen to go by the alias of Il_duce do you?

To believe that the arms industry is 'neutral' is incredibly naieve. The arms industry, like any other private industry, is driven by profit. In my opinion, privatised arms industry is incredibly unwise and this is why. This is more true in America than New Zealand, but these weapons are being bought with American money given to Israel anyway. The arms industry relies on selling weapons to governments to fight wars. During war time the industry grows as their is increased demand for weapons, profit increases. However when the war is over, the industry should decrease to a much smaller size and resources should be diverted to other areas. In a government owned defence industry this wouldn't be so much of a problem, however in a private industry this is obviously a massive problem. Peace = less money for the arms industry. The arms industry = a tens or hundreds of billions of dollars a year industry. American forign policy = heavily corporation driven. So arms suppliers will always lobby for war and not peace, it's in their interest to do so.

I'm new here and don't wanna start a flame war, but that analogy is just fucking stupid.

99.999% (a possibly exaggerated number, but that doesn't really matter) of kitchen knives will never be used to cause intentional harm, coercion or any other harmful actions on a person. They are designed to cut food, leather, and cans of coke.

Guns are created with one possible purpose, to cause harm to a person or animal. This doesn't mean all guns are bad, but they are all made for the purpose to harm.

One of these things is not like the other, so why the hell would you compare them?

Lastly, I do not believe profit is a good aim for any society, progress is a far better one in my opinion.

Ah you bastard, you beat me to it.

I think yours was pretty good.

Of course, this all hinges on whether Adolf breaks the habit of a lifetime and listens to other people's reasoning. More like the :hambeast: every week.

Looks like I'll have to make a proper reply to debunk your arguments some time either tomorrow or in the weekend (I'm writing a long email at the moment), as before I always come back fighting.

I don't recall using Il Douche, previous online usernames for me include K.S. Chiang, Sino (no longer active since I was banned from the NS forum for being too right-winged) and Mr. [some other Chinese surname].

You only do something if it is beneficial to you, and since self fulfilment is beneficial to you, you cannot claim that you are acting in a 100% selfless manner.

There are various ways to explain it.

They might feel bad if the other person dies, so would rather die themselves and die happy knowing they saved a life, rather than feeling guilty from standing by doing nothing.

They may not have anything to live for so they want to die anyway (this gives them a great excuse to seem selfless while actually still acting in their own interests).

Actually glory is completely viable. Feeding the ego is a massive influence on a persons actions.

That would only explain some of the cases, not all, so the theory still does not stick.

I knew my cynical world view would infect you one day.

Nobody likes to hear it, but it's quite self-evident: with a few exceptions such as instinct, all human behaviour is motivated by selfishness.

In conclusion, you have some seriously disturbing lack of morals to be defending Oscmar. They have been exposed by an inside source, and i'll provide you with links of what has been discovered. But i get the feeling that you'd defend them regardless. It is your type that have made the world the way it is. Full of injustice, greed and horror. The building of military equipment should never be put in a positive light, especially when it is being used against innocent civilians. I'd like to hear your support when such military equipment is being used against you and your family. But that's not the case here right? we're only dealing with the insignificant "other". Their blood is cheap in comparison.

Activists largely don't get paid. This maybe a foreign concept to you, but not everyone is driven by $$$. Shockingly enough eh.

Samf, you seem to have issues with me. Let it go dude, it's ok. Like i keep saying, it's only a forum. If you don't like my posts, ignore me. It's quite simple really. No need to be getting your knickers in a twist over shit that don't matter to you, including the issue of Oscmar. That goes to you too Chiang. I put it up for those who might be interested, the rest of you can go back to mulling over yourselves.

But if you really feel deeply about this, and think it's utterly wrong what we're doing. Open mic tomorrow, at 4pm 25 Shaddock Street. Feel free to tell us all about it. Chiang, i hope to see you there especially. Or do you need to hide behind your weapons to be a man? hmm?

Thanks for the invitation, but I don't go to Nazi rallies. I also stay away from crowds due to the suicide bombing risk.

For someone who is clearly a fan of the Nazis i find it interesting you'd make such a parallel, and that you'd shy away from the challenge. Weakling.

You realise what you're asking him is roughly equivalent to asking a negro to show up to a KKK gathering? Or an atheist to a mass? Or me to a tanning salon?

I'm asking him to show us just how much of a man he really is.

If he goes and says what he thinks, it's a good bet that he'd simply be insulted and jeered at rather than engaged in proper debate, as you've shown here.