Hmmm, I was curious as to whether I was right. The first result in my quick google search says I am (approximately), if we are to count the Soviet Union economies as 'planned'.

I generally follow the UN definition where to Soviet Union was clearly First World.

http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/second_world.htm

That above list is retarded as there are scores people starving the North Korea and that's suppose to be Second World. South Korea isn't a Second or First World country either.

Sorry Chiang, but Oob is correct. The terms have only changed meaning recently, and if you note, 'second world' is never used (except by some idiotic New Zealand politicians who I've heard use it before).

First world was capitalist satellites of the States, second world were planned economies that were satellites of the Soviets and the third were developing, unaligned nations.

I'll believe whatever the most reputable link tells me. So if you can find a more reputable link than mine that says otherwise, then I'll believe that, unless I find an even more reputable link.

I don't think Adolf has enough general knowledge about geo-politics and History to know he is wrong.

Here is the money quote:

From http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/thir...d_countries.htm

Thats the exact opposite to the truth.

Just step up, and face it, you tried to prove your point but your supporting arguments were false.

I'll find the source to support my argument on the Worlds definition during the holidays. I'm pretty sure I read it in a book a few years back.

Anyway, this thread has gone a long way from the original discussion. It moved on to the Holocaust, China and now the Worlds definition.

Socialism is just as bad as fascism, but communism I can't pass judgement on - since it's the hypothetical result of socialism, and has never actually existed anywhere at all to date. So I'll back communism, since a non-existent utopian system is nicer than any real world authoritarian system (socialist or fascist).

Very good point, Samf.

And even in terms of socialism versus fascism, I pose the question: would you rather live in Fascist Romania, Vichy France or Mussolini's Italy than live in Fidel Castro's socialist Cuba, socialist Vietnam or Allende's (pre-Pinochet) socialist Chile?

Probably Mussolini's Italy is the best out off the lot. Vichy France would be dependent on whether you're a German occupational settler or a native Frenchman.

Assuming you would have been of the local ethnicity, would you have rather have lived in Nazi Germany or in the Soviet Union?

Nazi Germany definitely! In the Soviet Union, you're very likely to end up as just another one of the millions of production line or collective farm slaves.

It has been proven that Germans under Hitler had more pride for their country than Russians under Stalin. The living standards in Germany was much higher. One thing Red Army troops upon their occupation of Germany found very puzzling was that, despite all the propaganda back home, why did the Germans own more luxury items in their homes than they did? They also could not contend why the Germans would invade their country despite living much more comfortable lives.

At least in Nazi Germany, you don't have to resort to cannibalism after some government policy fuckup destroyed the year's harvest.

I rest my case.

Hause, if you were asked that same question, which would it be, Nazi Germany or the USSR?

I would hesitatingly respond the Soviet Union (as opposed to your over eager DEFINITELY NAZI GERMANY!), and not turn it into some insane pro-Nazi spiel about the grandeur of Nazi Germany. I'd rather be poor and starving in Siberia than fighting to aid a meglomaniacal, deluded Nazi government that is attempting to conquer Europe in order to fufill insane objectives that Hitler set out in Mein Kampf, like wiping out Jews and ethnic minorities.

Technically, being in someone else's shoes, if you grew up in neither of the dictatorships, you moral views would reflect your environment. For the Germans, they believe that subjegating the Jews was right (the Jews had cost them the victory in WWI, they're misers and usurers, etc.) since they had many years of brainwashing. Killing the Jews through industrialized murder (which was kept secret from the German people until 1945) is something that even many ordinary SS men have difficulty comprehending with. The reason for the German eargerness partly come from the terms set by Versaille (criticized by modern historians as being too harsh), those in the Wehrmacht in particular felt that Germany should regain the lands lost no matter what.

Stalin was also an agressor during and before the war considering that the Red Army annexed the Baltic States, divided up Poland with Germany (the land lost are still part of Russia), attacked Finland and created the puppet state of Mongolia after an intrusion into China and forcing a section of the Mongolians to vote for independence at gunpoint. As for enthusiasm, it is doubtfult that the average Soviet citizens knew about these events beyond a single sentence mentioned in the bulletins. Considering the Red Army dyed the ground their color whereever they went, by the end of the war, Stalin has the rest of Eastern Europe firmly within his grasped and died a happy man with more territory than any Czar had before him.

Both dictators had a vision of conquering Europe. Stalin believed in spreading his "world revolution", while Hitler's aims of conquest were more blatant and empowered by racist theories. Either way, the citizens of both countries shall suffer from the actions of their leaders.


It's also interesting to see that there were some Jews who in order to evade persecution joined the Wehrmacht due to loophole in the law that did not forbade Jews from serving. Notable members of the military had held German Blood Certificates (each case had to be looked at personally by Hitler for approval), if Field Marshal von Manstein's Jewish ancestry is proven, that man would have the highest profile person of Jewish descent under the Nazis (well ahead of Heydrich in terms of battlefield achievements). The poster boy for the Wehrmacht also happens to be Jewish!

Many great physicists, including Max Born, Otto Stern and Erwin Schrödinger left Germany in disgust over the behaviour of the Nazis. Not to mention Einstein. How does that factor into your arguments, Mr Chiang?

That's a matter of their own political beliefs or in Einstein's case, the fear of racial persecution. Many engineers and physicists also stayed behind in Germany to continue their work, Von Braun being a prominent example. It is worth noting the German scientists helped the German warmachine as much as say the British or American scientist helped theirs.

Many scientists and artists also left Russia upon the Bolshevik takeover, it shows that the communists are just as loathed by the intellectual community.

Just pointing out that the Nazis didn't have the full, unadulterated support of the people like you imply. Although I'm sure there were a few fanatical, easily lead people who got into the whole "sig heil!" + badass military uniforms thing... *cough*

Von Braun's the rocket guy eh? Didn't he get arrested by the SS for dreaming about sending his rockets to the moon as opposed to raining down death and destruction on London, then promptly got the hell out and surrendered to the Americans when he was released? If so, how ironic that you use him as an example

If you're talking about the persecution of scientists and research engineers, the Soviet examples would be a lot worse than the von Braun example. Both the USSR and Nazi Germany were examples of brutal dictatorships, during the 60s and 70s there were Soviet Nobel prize winners. If Nazi Germany survived that long, it would also produce outstanding academic research of that calibre. As for von Braun's brief arrest, his work on rocketry was considered a high level secret and his actions had clearly violated his employment agreement of working on weaponry, not civilian research. The procedures of weaponry research can be very strict in many countries.

Von Braun's surrender to the Americans was an obvious choice as surrender to the Soviets could result in being a research slave (many German scientists feared that although in reality the Soviets cared for them better than their own people). Between the choices amongst the Allied countries, America's freedom from domestic devastation of the war and its status as the world's premier financial and military power ensures that he'll have a guaranteed place in any major rocketry research, be it weaponry or his dreams of space exploration. Britain and France would not serve as good choices simply due to the lack of funding for such high tech initiatives when reconstruction and rebuilding takes greater priority for their respective governments.

Over all, Nazi Germany was a better research environment than Stalinist Russia as scientists do not need to fear purges constantly. Hitler himself had dreamed of rocket space travel prior to becoming dictator.

In comparison to Fascist Italy (which had active and armed opposition to the government), the Nazis enjoyed far superior support by their people because Germany was in utter turmoil and Hitler's policies managed to bring back stability as well as getting the country back on track. The level of fanaticsm varies in any dictatorship, prior to WWII, Hitler was one of the most popular dictators in history.