There's been reports that National wishes to get rid of the 7 Maori seats in parliament because it bears favouritism to races and does not reward people on their merits, rather the colour of their skin.

The same is the case with scholarships, many Maori and Pacific Islanders are benefiting from quotas that allow them to receive lower grades and get into certain courses that are very hard to eg// law and medicine.

So the big question is, do you support racial quotas?

I also agree with equality, but I do beleive Maori should be given some form of benefit since they are the aboriginal people, it doesnt really look good PR wise if we start treating them the way Auzzies treat their Aboroginies.
But I also dont want it to get ridiculous like the Canadians and their "First Nations" people, Ive lived there and seen the results, its a very sad and corrupt system that leads to a LOT of resentment and racism.

Heres a number of benefits First Nations get off the top of my head.

* No tax on gas
* Free College (University) Depending on how wealthy their "band" is (a band is like a tribe)
* Government set aside "Reservations" where they are exempt from any government imposed Tax (including sales Tax)
* Houses are built for them government paid, on their Reserves and they only have to pay $50 monthly rent
* They have cars and school supplies for going to school sometimes supplied by their "band"

When I saw all of this, I thought it was ridiculous. The system is also overly corrupt, for example Bands get a certain amount from the government every year to provide their band, but the Cheif (Brian Tamaki styles) usually hoardes and uses it to put a new wing on his mansion. Also those "First Nations" that you can make best best best friends with you always take driving with you when you need gas, OR failing that, you dig and dig and dig to find a single speck or hint of "First Nation" in your family past in order to get these perks.

Sorry about that rant, I guess Im trying to say that I really dont beleive in giving others perks while making society unequal, it provides for jealousy, resentment and ultimately racial hate.

The only thing I dont really like in our society is the "Maori" scolarships, I have a few friends who get these, one of them really deserves it, but the other just blows the money on frivalent things as soon as they are receieved. In both cases they get the money for getting A's, or B's and what not while myself and others in the class look on and say "Hey! I got an A, I got a B, wheres my reward?!"

I think there should be a quota for getting into certain courses, since then you'll actaully get more examples of success for those people to aim for, e.g. doctors, researchers.

Certain racial groups don't do as well as others in school, whether thats due to personal issues or the accepted cultural stereotype is up for discussion. But the main point of these quota policies is for those racial groups to gain some sort of confidence in their selves.

Taking away these quota's might be analogous to leaving kiwis and other native endangered birds to their own devices. Of course we're not talking about extinction, but in an environment with strong competition, the weak will naturally be left behind. We don't let that happen to animals, so to your fellow man you would act the same, expecially if they are of another culture (biodiversity?).

When you are working on an entire race of humans with all their social intricacies, you won't see results as fast as a tuatara breeding programme (which still takes long). It will take decades or more.

Of course over doing the quotas will lead to dependence and people will try to take advantage of their position as the protect minorty, as we have seen.

All this i think is due to the competitiveness in society today, every man/woman for him/herself. Not only are the less fortunate left behind, but those in better conditions are also less inclined to help others.

I think you should be admitted to courses based on your merits academically and socially, not based on the colour of your skin.

Along with that, I think quotas allow maori and pacific islanders not to try as hard because they can get in on a lower grade anyway.

Therefore it leads to racism against the white person which is just as bad as racism against the black person.

once they are admitted into a course, do they get special priority all the way till they graduate?

I want to say no but in my opinion I think it is probable that they would. Think about it, they have been admitted to a course based on lower grades so in order for that to be "worthwhile" in the government's opinosn they would have to receive special treatment in order to continue otherwise they probably wouldn't be able to hack it.

This is the thing I am talking about, I want a doctor and a lawyer who are very intelligent, I don't want a middle of the road one.

The government and the universities keep on stereotyping these cultures as being less intelligent, that is the feeling I get.

I don't see that there is any point to having Maori and Pacific Island tutorials.

Having these quotas keeps segregation and stops the races striving for the same excellence that other races do.

It is not a good way to go.

All these quotas are is cases of Inverse Racism...... it is wrong........... people should get into something because they are the best person for the possition......

exactly but the government has crossed the line with racial quotas and gone too far.

So has the university with all these services for minority races. I think when it comes to help the student should ask for it themselves rather than having it shoved down their throat.

I mean I know that I am tired of hearing about the tuakana programme, nobody actually cares about it, it wastes university time and funds that could be better used.

I believe the Maori seats should be abolished from parliament as well, you should get in based on popularity, not on skin colour.

couldnt agree with you more......... and not to be racist but this is an observation i have made (there are places for maori and PI people in uni, which means someone who may want that place doesnt get in...... then these maori or PI people come 2 2-3 lectures then never come back.... then that place has been wasted for the people that may have tried a lot harder) i just find that wrong........ classic example was in my chem lab on friday started at 2......... 2 maori girls came in at 3:30 and expected to b let in............. sorry if some1 finds that racist I didnt mean it to be but it is just an observation of mine.....

i totally agree with that and that is what I am afraid of. I am afraid of the nation being dumbed down.

there was a recent report in the news that there are less qualified doctors and you can't just blame this on fleeing from the country, a certain amount would be those who got in to stage one and didn't make it to stage two.

This brings me to the next point, why are these people getting places to only drop out. They are denying someone else the place.

I mean in certain subjects there are empty seats so that would be okay to let them in.

I think you get let in based on your academic ranking, re: ncea for more information on ranking.

Then there is a certain amount of lee way, ever been to an HOD and gotten admission to a course you shouldn't have? I have. now, although I have done it, I don't agree with it in principle, I think you have to draw the line somewhere and say "sorry, no you aren't good enough, your grades aren't what we are looking for, do something else for the next year and then come back".

Then it motivates people to get off their ass and work very hard and THEN they deserve the place but until then they don't.

With all this talk of quotas, I wonder if winnie is in parliament on a Maori seat, it woudl be a very interesting thing to know.

I like winston peters' honesty........... he tells how he see's it...... Restricted entry classes should b the best people get in........ simple as that

Exactly but New Zealanders are in a way too nice and want to make people feel good about themselves, or at least the government does but they don't want us to work hard.

I am not saying this in attack of the government, you just have to look at the latest news and advertising campaigns to see they don't want a prosperous, intelligent, hard working community.

Quotas reduce hard work.

Winnie's honesty is brilliant and that is what keeps him in parliament.

i think winnie is under-rated as a MP......

Because they are brown, and the majority of them have lower living standards than the rest of us, you're gonna tell them that they're just going to have to get used to being under-qualified and down-trodden? Because their upbringing wasnt as good as yours and society depict them as dumb and poor, they're just out of luck, we dont give a fuck, better luck next life.

From what i've seen in my first month of uni, there arnt a lot of brown faces around. They arent being trucked in like theres no tomorrow. I believe that most people in these racial groups are capable of getting into their chosen courses, they aren't born stupid. But the fact is that the proportion of them going for uni is far lower that say that for pakeha students. The reason is that because of their accepted cultural stereotype, most don't see teh point in tertiary study. The quotas give them an added incentive to get a higher education, to better themselves, to improve the image of their people.

Good points Yams

I still dont like the Maori Scolarship thing tho, mostly cause Im whiny.

It'll be hard removing any maori scholarships or quota. You'll have treaty legal wranglings for eons.

These things need to be given time. Europeans have been doing the "mass education" thing for ages. But this is a relatively new thing for the aboriginies of many countries. The priorites in their lives did not used to be "to get a higher education" and a well paid job. In a way, if you look upon it as a whole, it is sort of easy to understand that relatively, the way society is run now is newer for their culture and has been forced upon them. Qoutas are fair enough for now to ensure those races are represented in certain fields, but warning needs to be given that the quotas will be phased out over time, as we beleive that they are capable of doing it on their own. I believe that everyone is capable of doing what they are really motivated for.

We could draw an analogy with women in education possibly? When did it start that women could be formally educated, how long has it taken for equality to occur in certain fields?

there we go, finally. Thank you dragonorchid. The whole quota system is a long term plan to bring in equality.

But who would want equality when they've got it good right?

I think the desired effect of racial quotas could be achieved by using income quotas/subsidies, combined with a marketing campain aimed at Maori and Pacific Islanders.

I think the problem is that university is outside the experience of a lot of Maori and Pacific Islanders, as none of their family have attended, so they don't seriously consider going themselves.

I don't think there should be any quotas, quotas in my opinion only segregate people and this is something I am against, very much against.

Yes there was a mention of females obtaining admission to university but were there ever any quotas and special scholarships?

I know for a fact that there are several female only schols for engineering.

How do u feel about schols for financial hardship then?

scholarships for financial hardship are something that I do support. Why shoudl someone jsut miss out because they don't have the money?

it is not race or gender based either and it gives these people an opportunity they might not otherwise have, having siad that there are student loans to cater for this problem.

Dr Steve, you hit the nail on the head. Another problem, and I don't want to discriminate against those in Manukau but the schools there are lower decile. I think the government should invest more money so these people can get a quality education that people in higher decile areas get.

This would create more of a balance across the board.

more scholarships Yes
quotas Yes

Until it is even across the board anyway and there has been an increase. It can only be beneficial to everyone, not just minority races.


Quotas in parliament, until racial discrepencies have been sorted out.

Hold up, Liz. I thought you were pro user pays? Now you're saying that if they don't have the money they should get some assistance?

Confuses the hell out of me.

Quotas help gain entry, not degrees. Hospitals/firms aren't exactly going to take someone who has a C- gpa over an A student so the whole dumbed down theory is crass. They are designed to help bring better representation in those professions in proportion to their populations - any segregation you feel is only present cuz of past governments and their dodgey dealings with Maori/Pacific Islanders.

As far as the Canadian natives are concerned - can you really make up for the shit deal they have? It only seems over the top cuz of the relationship Maori and Pakeha have over here but in actual fact, they got screwed right up the hooty guru.

really? I so didn't know that *rolls eyes* Jaded Mandarin.

Sarey I am saying that Maori and Pacific Islanders according to stats I found last night, I cant rremember the link, are highly un-educated so something needs to be done.

I am still user pays, quotas don't mean the Maori and Pacific Islanders don't pay, it just means they get in.

scholarships, there is nothing wrong with this I don't think so long as they earn the scholarship.

I don't think there should be any quotas, quotas in my opinion only segregate people and this is something I am against, very much against. - liz

No, liz, this is wrong. society segregates people, the point of the quotas is to bring people together at university, otherwise youi'd simply see a sea of white and asian faces. Can you imagine how difficult it is for an islander in otara with 8 brothers and sisters, whos parents are bus drivers, who shares a bedroom with 3 siblings, to study to get into university? let alone afford to pay for it? No i doubt you can, so yes you have missed the point. i realise there are white people lacking opportunities too, but the government has to follow a trend, and if you want a de-segregated work force, instead of white lawyers and doctors, and black road workers and bus drivers, then you need islanders and maori and university. period.

if something needs to be done about the 'uneducated islanders' then what other offers have you got on the table? also, i think we should note that this discussion would probably be deemed offensive by many people on the basis it is white people talking about how to treat black people.

really? I so didn't know that *rolls eyes* Jaded Mandarin.- liz

i imagine mandarin feels this is patronising. this is not a question and answer session with liz shaw.

Ummm the got screwed out of their native land just as much as the Maoris and the Aboriginies did.

On a list of most well off because of government niceties I put the three like this.

1. Canadian First Nations
2. Maoris
3. Aboriginies.

Toby what exactly are you complaining about? :frustrated: :frustrated: :frustrated:

Initially I was anti quotas because I thought they created segregation. I then did research and changed my mind, in favour of maori and pacific island quotas beause it helps create equality and gets these two races out of poverty.

So I don't think your post was founded and justified. :frustrated: :frustrated:

Fez, I don't think it's appropriate to rank who was luckiest enough to get the most crumbs after getting raped.

Elizabeth, wow, what a way to reply. All you can do is come up with a bad attempt at wit in the hope I forget all about you not having an answer to the holes poked in your argument.

As for un-educated, deary me. This factual site where you found your statistics wouldn't happen to be Nationalfront.org.nz would it? You really should consider holding off using your posting privileges until you have something sensible to share.

*kisses and hugs*

Jaded Mandarin, please can you not call me Elizabeth, I am Liz.

I changed my mind after visiting the progressive site and a Manukau website that I struck after doing a search on Google.

http://www.manukau.govt.nz/latest/2003/july/education.htm

Now do you see why I changed my mind and said that there do in fact need to be Maori quotas. I knew there was a problem but until last night I didn't realise the extent of it and I was alarmed so yes, bring on the quotas.

As Maori and Pacific Islanders have been in a cycle of poverty they are disadvantaged compared to Europeans or Asians. This is why I support scholarships.

In order for them to get educated there also need to be quotas. I do not know what the average grades for maori and pacific islanders at school is but unless something is done, in the form of quotas this cycle is going to continue.

It is unfair for these two races to live in a society where they have previousl been disadvantaged and it is unfair that they remain disadvantaged. This is very much why I changed my mind and am now pro quotas and scholarships based on rate.

I wouldn't like it if I was disadvantaged because of my skin colour and I believe in treating people how you would want to be treated so the Maori and Pacific Islanders do need quotas and other measures in place that leads them into employment and leads them out of the cycle of poverty.

Poverty causes crime so it s in everyone's interests to have the quotas and measures in place.

I was wrong before in being anti the quotas and scholarships.

You still don't get it. Only certain programmes have quotas - the popular ones are Medicine and Law. It is about building greater representation in those areas - not raising the percentage of Pacific Island/Maori job hunters that have three School C passes.

The quota system is not the answer to the statistics and issues of being uneducated you raised. That stuff starts at home/in the schools. Think about that Lizzy and have another go, it's okay.

Thanks for calling me Lizzy, that is something I can handle and kinda like. :P

Okay, what I am saying is that there need to be quotas across the board, not just in these courses for the reasons I have previously given.

The home is where things start, that is where the negative cycle is though, so the children are not being taught in the home.

I think the best course of action is in the hands of the school. I would like to see teachers in schools promoting a higher education to maori and pacific islanders. The best methods I can think of are special workshops in schools, yes it is discrimination but it is positive discrimination.

The teachers can also, at parent teacher interviews, discuss the parents values, and then maybe the teachers can suggest to the parents, if they aren't already, that they start promoting a tertiary education to the maori and pacific island students.

Now, the problem is also within these two races not going on further, at universities we have the tuakana arts programme. I would suggest something similar in schools.

I am not in a position of power and do not know how effectively this would work but maybe the government should look at making a new law that nobody, across the racial board can leave school without having completed at least school certificate.

out of all these suggestions though, I think mentoring and extra attention is the best option.

Many Maori and Pacific Islanders do poorly at English compared with other races. Could it be that we need to change the course content and make it more practical and more hands on? How would this work though?

Discrimination is not the word to use for many reasons that I'm sure you could discover on your own with some of that good ole' research.

Quotas need not be all across the board because it is only the courses mentioned that have special prerequisites [e.g a GPA of 7 or higher]. If such quotas did exist, that would be something I would complain about - that's where the dumbing comes in.

I would not say there's a "negative cycle" at home, Lizzy. That comes off as heartless. Do you think Maori/Pacific Island parents have negative intentions for their kids?

Anyway, mentoring programmes and the rest of it have been at some schools for years. They face a lot of hardship in getting backed up financially but nevertheless, they're getting favourable results from the students. It's growing steadily.

Creating practical/hands on elements in assessing English is not helping anyone and I would not support a law making it compulsory to have such and such before leaving school. School is not for everyone. Progress in education and support at school and in the home will bring us glory.

Amen.

just to clarify by negative I meant a cycle of poverty and one without education.

Look, now youre just making me sound racisit.

I say to you, go live in Canada for a year, experience the intense racism, discontend and resentment felt towards the First Nations people and youll see why they took "Equality" just a little too far.

Sometimes that has to happen after people have been unfairly treating one race.

You have the reverse for a while and then you are able to gain TRUE equality.

This is just an opinion.

I know you said it without malice Fez, it just didn't sit right with me. I understand what you're saying but I believe as ridiculous as those "privileges" may seem, they still don't come close to compensating the tragic events in their history.

I think Cassius clay said 'it doesnt matter what colour is doing the hating, its still wrong.'

So i dont dig what liz says about reverse racism being necessary. You dont haveto turn the scale up the other way for there to be 'true' equality.

Exactly! Even tho I think its pretty much been agreed by everybody that until they can get accustomed to the different cultural standards in the form of education and the competition in getting job/careers etc that the quotas should stay, but only temporarily.

But again I say Canadas situation is uncalled for, yes the experienced a lot of hardship, but that was in the past, the "white man" of today didnt commit those crimes against them. (ok yes they should be held responsible for anything untoward committed in the past, but not to the extent that they are seeing) What the "white man" or the rest of Canada for that matter today see is extreme unequality which leads to racism, hate and resentment.